Anybody played BESM D20 yet?

[Stormfalcon]

The thing is that skills just aren't balanced for that sort of thing. One rank in a combat skill isn't even close to being balanced with one rank in a normal skill. Combat skills break two fundamental rules -- they use skills for combat stuff (the Rule of d20 is to use Feats) -- and they grant major abilities at the cost of only skill ranks (the Rule of d20 is to use class abilities, or at a minimum Feats for this).

And this is a serious example of Not Getting It. If people wanted BESM mechanics, they'd play Tri-Stat BESM. If you pick up a d20 game, you don't expect it to be fundamentally different from other d20 games just for the sake of being different. Tacking 'oh, and you can go back to standard d20 style if you want' at the end doesn't help anyone.

I think we're approaching this from two different philosophies, and that's the core of our debate. From what I can tell, the approach you and some of the others in this thread are taking to D20 and its rules is that they're akin to being written in stone and variants are discouraged, even if the core rules don't exactly fit the campaign setting under consideration. WotC certainly encourages this approach in its constant warnings and discouragement regarding house rules and the like.

The approach I'm taking is that the rules are written on paper, and if something doesn't quite work or gets in the way of enjoying the setting at hand, get rid of it and use another version of the rules that do fit. If you have the BESM D20 book, go to the front and read the Role Playing Manifesto. That's exactly the philosophy I use when it comes to RPGs, no matter what the system. D20 is not holy writ and it can stand some modification to fit the setting at hand.

If anything, there are variations among the various "standard" D20 sytems. D&D is not exactly the same as D20 Modern, and neither are the same as Star Wars D20. BESM D20 is yet another variation, though it is more at variance than either of those three. It's aimed at a role-playing style that emphasizes a more abstract and cinematic approach to gaming. It adds more options to GMs and players alike. They can use BESM D20 wholesale, piecemeal, or not at all.

The point is that they're options and alternates to standard D20, and those open D20 to other players who may want to see a compromise between different systems. BESM D20 uses the basic D20 mechanics and adds in systems for point-based creation/advancement, skills-based combat, and more abstract combat that doesn't necessarily require minis or mats. Some players and DMs may prefer any or all of those variants and use them as they see fit. Other players and DMs may choose to chuck them and stick with standard D20. The bottom line is that those variants are there for people to use or ignore as they see fit.

 

[drnuncheon]

Maybe I'm missing something important here, but do the CP costs for the stuff in Anime d20 seem completely crocked to anyone else?

If I'm reading this right, a fighter (for example) gets 3 or 4 CP on every level that he doesn't get a bonus feat.

For 3 CP, you can increase your BAB by +1.
For 2 CP, you can buy another feat.
For 1 CP, you can increase an ability score by 2.

I realize that they think that the spellcasters are overpowered compared to the other classes, but doesn't this seem to be just a bit overboard?

I am all for a set of guidelines for designing and balancing classes (Shadowcraft studios I think had a nice one) but not if this is what it turns out.

J

 

[thundershot]

Yes, it is WAY overboard, which is why I won't allow it.

The approach BESMd20 takes isn't alternative rules to d20 games, it FORCES you to use these alternate rules in order to use the rest of the book without a major deconstruction of everything. Joe Gamer can pick up Bastards & Bloodlines, or Mythic Races, or Faeries and be able to have the rules mesh with what has already been established without much adjustment. BESMd20 doesn't give you that freedom of being usable from day one. Even Star Wars d20 only recommends that blaster damage be decreased to 2 die of damage instead of 3 in order to work with d20 modern. That's EASY. Nothing needs rewritten, and everything's great.



Chris

 

[Stormfalcon]

Maybe I'm missing something important here, but do the CP costs for the stuff in Anime d20 seem completely crocked to anyone else?

If I'm reading this right, a fighter (for example) gets 3 or 4 CP on every level that he doesn't get a bonus feat.

For 3 CP, you can increase your BAB by +1.
For 2 CP, you can buy another feat.
For 1 CP, you can increase an ability score by 2.

I realize that they think that the spellcasters are overpowered compared to the other classes, but doesn't this seem to be just a bit overboard?

I am all for a set of guidelines for designing and balancing classes (Shadowcraft studios I think had a nice one) but not if this is what it turns out.

J

This is one area where I wish they had gone a little more in-depth or at least explained a little better. The reasons I can guess at would be A) BAB has a wider effect on combat than any one given feat (it's used all the time, after all), and/or B) Raising the first BAB by one often raises the BAB for additional attacks (if they're available) as far as class progression is concerned. Those would be my guesses, but it'd be much better if GoO had explained their rationale for 3cp per +1 BAB increase.

 

[Stormfalcon]

The approach BESMd20 takes isn't alternative rules to d20 games, it FORCES you to use these alternate rules in order to use the rest of the book without a major deconstruction of everything. Joe Gamer can pick up Bastards & Bloodlines, or Mythic Races, or Faeries and be able to have the rules mesh with what has already been established without much adjustment. BESMd20 doesn't give you that freedom of being usable from day one. Even Star Wars d20 only recommends that blaster damage be decreased to 2 die of damage instead of 3 in order to work with d20 modern. That's EASY. Nothing needs rewritten, and everything's great.

I guess this comes down to the amount of work one wants to do to get things to work properly if one wants to mix and match elements of BESM D20 and "standard" D20. I don't mind doing extra work as a GM to adapt things. Then again, I'm used to doing house rules and alternate systems when the rules don't fit my vision properly. If I need to adjust something, I'll adjust it.

For example, does speed (as used in a few of the BESM character classes) mesh well with D&D? Not necessarily, so I'll discuss it with my players and house rule limitations to the speed attribute. Either that, or take it out of the class and give the player another attribute at 2 ranks (which BESM D20 does suggest) instead. Nothing hard about that. Just takes a little elbow-grease on the GMs part as well as player discussion to make sure everyone's on the same page.

 

[drnuncheon]

This is one area where I wish they had gone a little more in-depth or at least explained a little better. The reasons I can guess at would be A) BAB has a wider effect on combat than any one given feat (it's used all the time, after all), and/or B) Raising the first BAB by one often raises the BAB for additional attacks (if they're available) as far as class progression is concerned. Those would be my guesses, but it'd be much better if GoO had explained their rationale for 3cp per +1 BAB increase.

I think you misunderstand.

I think all three of those numbers are far too low, period. I don't think fighters need ~20 extra feats or 80 extra attribute points or 160 extra skill points to be balanced with wizards. That's just insane.

And I didn't even get into the 'run at 50 mph for 1 point' kind of thing that other people mentioned.

J

 

[teitan]

I bought BESM D20 off of a friend, he wanted the Limited Edition one and it hadn't come in and when it did, I got it. I own the revised Second Edition BESM as well. Honestly, I like this version quite a bit. It does have a different feel to it than standard BESM (let us call the D20 version AD20), more like a video game than a cartoon or comic book series. (note, I WILL NOT get into a debate over the differences between anime and cartoons and comic books and manga. IT IS AN ARTIFICIAL CONSTRUCT USED TO DIFFERENTIATE BY PEOPLE WHO WANT TO SEEM MORE SOPHISTICATED IN THEIR PLEASURES. Pooty on them)

ANYWAY... I think a lot of this stuff could be easily ported over to DnD IF you want a more cinematic game, which I know a lot of people want after years and years of microtactics in D20 or ADnD. I can not believe people are bit-hing about GOO making this book because it is a great BRIDGE product. Most people who play D20 are newbies, DnD is a real newbie game. I am not saying DnD is for noobs or sux or anything of the sort. What I am saying is that DnD is the beginning of most people RPG careers. With this product I think GOO is doing what most companies who create D20 versions of their games are doing, creating a bridge product to other styles of Roleplaying games.

What BESM D20 does for GOO is that the kid who LOVES playing DnD goes into the store, see BESM D20 and picks it up thinking "Yeah, ballz nasty" and picks it up. he plays it, loves it and decides to look more at this BESM stuff... well hellfire, there is a whole lot more with a keen new system he has never tried before. the market for GOO just got expanded and all because BESM D20 introed him to a new style of play in a much easier manner than going from D20 to BESM Tri-Stat. There was a smaller learning curve and with the experience of building point based characters he has a better grasp of point based systems, allowing for a smoother transition into point based systems like BESM, Hero, GURPS etc.

ALright, here is another point. SOOOOOOO many people bit-h about how this D20 game based on this novel line sux. It doesn't feel like World X. They tried to shoehorn the setting into D20 blah blah blah. Well GOO made D20 work for Anime, not Anime work for D20. I don't think this game should carry the D20 system logo because it is better served with just the OGL but GOO made their decision. We praise Green Ronin for the excellent Mutants & Masterminds because they made the system work for the genre and yet we are booing GOO for making the system work for the genre as well? That is just bullocks. GOO did an excellent job on this book... well, except for DYnamic Sorcery, that is just a glimmer of the glory that was DS in Tri-Stat...

Edit: Lastly, the DnD and D20 Modern class breakdowns were just how to break the classes down for use in BESM, not the other way around. They are also examples of how the rules can be used to create these sorts of characters.

As to Constructs as a race, the point buy nature of the game eliminates the need for level adjustments. It just costs you more points to play a construct character, you won't have as many nifty Special Attacks or some such because you had to burn all your points on the construct race... Notice how you get bonus points for playing a Half-Orc?

jason

 

[teitan]

And for another more positive note... yes, BESM D20 can be used for Final Fantasy quite well, except maybe Tactics... For VII you would have to find a way to emulate the Materia, possibly Item of Power with Magic as it's special ability.

jason

 

[Mucknuggle]

And for another more positive note... yes, BESM D20 can be used for Final Fantasy quite well, except maybe Tactics... For VII you would have to find a way to emulate the Materia, possibly Item of Power with Magic as it's special ability.

jason

What about the way that people learn spells in FFVI? Cant the system emulate Espers or would that be pure homebrew?

 

[Stormfalcon]

I'd say something similar to the Materia example. Basically, the Guardian (or, more rather, the crystallized remainder of it) is something the character carries with them. The longer the character carries the Guardian, the more synched-up the two become. Eventually, they get to the point where the character gains the spells of the Guardian permanently and can pass it on to another character while starting over with another Guardian. The more powerful the Guardian and its spells, the longer it takes to learn them.

Like Materia, I'd consider the Guardian a magic item, since items of power tend to involve CP, and in FF VI, Guardians get swapped around frequently. In order to gain the Guardian's spells, the character needs to earn a set number of XP (to reflect the time spent synching up with the Guardian). The more powerful the Guardian, the more XP it's going to take.

Of course, the character needs to take at least one level of Dynamic Sorcery to provide the energy points needed to fuel those spells, but the CP cost for DS should be less since it's limited to the use of Guardians and the spells they bestow. The more levels of DS the character has, the more capable they are of handling high-level Guardians.

Still needs work and details, but it's a possible approach.