Anyone done work on a Shaman "core class"?

[hong]

Re: Re: Re: Thanks, Hong

This is the part I'm struggling with (mostly because of lack of play-testing abilities right now). You don't think reducing the animists effective rebuking levels by 6 is enough? Perhaps if it were increased to -8 levels? I looked thru the MM and it looked "about right",......but I could be convinced either way. Half SR seems too high.......

Ah, didn't see that the first time. Having the animist rebuke as 6 levels lower is much like giving all outsiders turn resistance 6, which helps.

Also, I just realised that version of the priest in the Word doc is different to what's on the web page. D'oh! Here's the relevant ability as given on my priest page:

Turn or rebuke fiend: At 14th level, the priest’s ability to turn or rebuke undead extends to fiends (outsiders with the evil subtype). Each attempt to turn or rebuke fiends uses one of the priest’s turning attempts for that day, just as if the fiends were undead. A fiend’s malevolent spirit is much harder for the priest to deal with than most forms of undead. It gains +5 turn resistance, and may also make a Will saving throw to resist the turning or rebuking attempt. The DC for the save is equal to 10 + one-half the priest’s level + her Charisma modifier. A turning or rebuking attempt that is successfully resisted is still used up for the day.

Note that in this version, the turn resistance is reduced, but the fiend gets a save to avoid the effect. I think this is the best way to do things, since fiend HD can vary all over the place for a given CR, and a fixed level of turn resistance may not be appropriate.

 

[hong]

Now, speaking as someone whose view of the world most closely meshes with the broadest definition of animism, I would say that the exclusive focus on nature-based magic would be erroneous. What about ancestor spirits? Spirits that have never touched the mortal world? Spirits of a nature completely alien to what is understood by most people? Despite being described as primitive, I belive the animist/shaman perspective of the world contains a great degree of complexity and depth. I believe exploring these things would be a great asset to creating a unique role for this class, one that goes beyond being a derivative or hybridization of other classes.

"Shaman" is one of those words that means whatever people want it to mean. Depending on who you talk to, it could be

1) someone like a native American shaman, with totem, animal spirits, etc

2) a Buddhist/Taoist mystic

3) someone more akin to a "witch", who casts charms and creates magic potions

The Mongoose version is most like (1), the OA shaman seems closest to (2), and the Green Ronin shaman seems to combine elements of both of these.

 

[Nail]

Now, speaking as someone whose view of the world most closely meshes with the broadest definition of animism, I would say that the exclusive focus on nature-based magic would be erroneous. What about ancestor spirits? ....(snip)...

Exactly! I was hoping for some suggestions on a wholy spirit-based class, including a much broader understanding of what a "spirit" is. Perhaps include "elementals" as some of these spirits.....and certainly including spirits of ancestors, heroes, and even ideals. Unfortunately, my knowledge of the RL eastern traditions of animism is....patchy, at best. So I have little to base it from.

The Mongoose d20 book comes closest.....but the mechanics are not entirely compatible with 3e D&D. I do not have 3e OA. A purchase for after 3.5e comes out in July.

The kernel of an idea at the center of this (FWIW) is that an animist's magic is "divine", and yet is completely separate from the outer planes and/or gods. IOW, gods are not just "greater spirits", but something entirely apart. Gods (and their "clerics") have taken great pains to remove animism (the worship of Material Plane-bound spirits) from places of mortal influence, even squash it, as it directly takes away from their own influence and power.

The animist should be the master of ....well, of summoning and bargaining with spirits, at the very least. Mastery is probably the wrong word, as it implies dominance. I don't see dominance having a role in the animist class. But the animist (a.k.a. shaman) can use his powers to turn those "spirits" that are the product of outsider influence: the undead and the avatars of the outsiders themselves.

So, what part of what I've worked up is that the animist can rebuke spirits (elementals, nature spirits, ancestor spirits, etc), can turn undead (at 2 levels lower), and can turn outsiders (at 6 levels lower).

I've had a chance over the past few days to compile a list of outsider CRs and HD...it looks like at the higher CR, the HD are often about 5 less than the CR......so turning at 6 levels lower looks about right. (It's an Excel file, should anyone care) Perhaps a few of them (Maraliths!) will have turn resistance so it's not so easy.

Can anyone think of some other desent powers/abilities to give animists? (They cast a short list of spells spontaneously, like the sorcerer.) Are they too powerful?

???????

 

[Nail]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks, Hong

Note that in this version, the turn resistance is reduced, but the fiend gets a save to avoid the effect. I think this is the best way to do things, since fiend HD can vary all over the place for a given CR, and a fixed level of turn resistance may not be appropriate.

Interesting.. much more balanced, I'd wager.

But here's where my inexperince with DMing 3e rears its ugly head: Does giving the outsider an effective turn resistance and giving them a save (Will?) make the turning power of your shaman practically useless?

I'd guess the answer to that is yes. (shrugs)

 

[hong]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks, Hong

But here's where my inexperince with DMing 3e rears its ugly head: Does giving the outsider an effective turn resistance and giving them a save (Will?) make the turning power of your shaman practically useless?

I'd guess the answer to that is yes. (shrugs)

I don't think so. Take the example of the marilith. This is a CR 17 creature with 9 HD. Even with +5 turn resist, that only makes it 14 HD equivalent for turning. A 17th level priest is practically guaranteed of turning it (needs a 1 on the turning check, assuming 10 Cha -- a high-level PC with turning ability will almost certainly have better than this). Assuming mariliths should still be a credible threat against a 17th level party, that's not very good. So the Will save is added into the mix, and the marilith's +10 Will save at least gives it a chance of sticking around.

Even that isn't very great, since the DC of 10 + 1/2 priest level + Cha mod could easily be in the mid- or high 20s. Hmm.

 

[Kevin O'Reilly]

In 2e Spells and Magic had a neat Shaman class based on animal spirits.

In 3e I'd do something like this:

Shaman
HD: d8
Spell Progression - As Druid
Skill Points 4+Int
Skills As Druid (except - Handle Animal), plus two other Knowledge - player choice:
Armor - Light, Weapons -Light

Shaman draw their powers from spirits, rather than from divinities. For some these spirits are anima, spirits of nature, some are spirits of the dead, and for some outsiders, such as devils and demons.

Each spirit a shaman knows gives the shaman access to a specific domain, both spells and powers. However, depending on the power of the spirit, access to spell levels is limited.

Great Spirits - (Call DC 24) Spell Access 7th - 9th
Major Sirits - (Call DC 18) Spell Access 4th - 6th
Minor Spirits - (Call DC 12) Spell Access 1st - 3rd

Each time a shaman can come to know a new spirit she can choose a spirit from a domain she does not have access, or choose a spirit aligned with the domian of a lesser spirit, but with access to highter level spells.

A shaman's key stat is her charisma and she begins play with a number of spirits equal to the Shamans Charisma modifier. Further, a shaman can call a new spirit at 3,6,9,12,15,18 levels. Starting a 6th the Shaman can call a Major Spirt, then at 12th a Great Spirit.

While a Shaman can have access to many powers through a spirit, a shaman must be careful in the domains she selects. Domains that inherently in conflict mean that those spirits will also be in conflict, increasing the likelihood that a spirit may disfavor the Shaman (see below)

When a Shaman casts a spell she calls upon a spirit to aid her. A spirit may or not answer. To successfully "cast" a spell the Shaman must succeed in a Spellcraft check with the DC indicated above. (Note: Shamans use Cha as the modifier for Spellcraft)

If a Shaman has displeased a spirit it may disfavor the Shaman, in this cas the DC is increased by +5.

Further, a Shaman may call upon the spirit to fight for her. This acts as a Summon Monster spell (either III, VI, XI), again with a call DC as above. However, if the sprit is killed while in a physical form the Shaman can not call on the spirit for spells or aid for (3, 5, or 7) days respectfully.

Feats: a Shaman can Wild Shape like a Druid or the equivalent level, but only into the form of a Spirit. If a Shaman does has humanoid spirits she can assume an uncanny resemblance to the spirit, as per Alter Self. If the shaman has demonic spirits she can assume the form of demons but gains none of the supernatural abilities - treat the wildshape as Polymorph Self. If the Shaman has only anima spirits this power has no effect physically, but the Shaman can breath in water if the anima is Water, Levitate if the anima is air, Fire Resistance 12 if the anima is Fire, Stone Shape if the anima is Earth, or Pass Without Trace if the anima is wood.

If you want me to expand on this idea, let me know.

 

[maransreth]

Netbook of Classes has a Shaman core class. In it shamans are granted spells from their totems. There are also rules on how to interact with spirits and even bind them for certain needs.

Sample totems are represented as well as how to stat a spirit.

Check it out at the address in the sig.

Duane Nutley

 

[Afrodyte]

Nail:

I don't think they should be able to cast spells per se, but when they summon spirits they are allied with, the spirits would more than likely use their natural abilities in favor of the sorcerer. I think that being able to communicate with spirits should certainly be high on the list for animist abilities. Perhaps have the power of the spirit contacted be related to level?

I believe an animist class has great roleplaying potential, if you are careful with how the class is presented.

I agree with you when you say you'd have to refine how you would define spirit. Perhaps create a spirit template that could be used for any creature? Imagine how cool it would be to contact the spirit of an ancient dragon! One of the things that could make the animist stand out is that unlike arcane and divine casters, their powers are not as predictable. Fumbles when dealing with spirits could have disastrous consequences. Not to mention, spirits have wills, ideas, and desires of their own, which would come into play when an animist wants them to do something. Going back to the dragon example, consider the ramifications of having a spirit dragon in a party. What happens when the dragon demands that he have first dibs on all treasure they find, as payment for having him as an ally?

Also, perhaps they should have a level-dependant ability to travel into the spirit world. As they level up, maybe they could gain access to more remote and more guarded areas. Maybe they can bring people with them as they get more powerful.

I have an idea for the skill list of animists. Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Knowledge (spirit) should certainly be on the list, especially looking at the animist as the mediator between the spiritual and material worlds and as (maybe) a servant of the spirits.

As far as alignment goes, I'm not sure about restrictions. I can see just about any alignment being supported by this class. Their methods and goals, however, would differ. Lawful and evil shamans may be into binding spirits and dominating them moreso than other alignments. Evil animists can get a great deal of leverage if they have the power to bind spirits against their will. In addition, spirits are very potent allies for those who have dreams of power and domination. They would probably be willing to deal with some of the more visceral requirements of evil spirits. If Lawful Good, then they may only bind evil spirits as a means of rendering them helpless to harm others. If Lawful Neutral, perhaps a strict, complicated code or tradition may determine which spirits get bound and which do not. Then again, they might only bind spirits that pose a serious threat to themselves or to the world at large. Neutral animists may probably be more into the mediator role than most, perhaps trying to balance the needs and desires of both worlds. Perhaps they, along with CN animists, don't care as long as the spirits don't attempt to harm them or those they care about.

I hope this helps.

 

[Nail]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks, Hong

....Take the example of the marilith. This is a CR 17 creature with 9 HD. Even with +5 turn resist, that only makes it 14 HD...

Right. But isn't the maralith an extreme case? All other outsiders in the MM have HD much, much closer to CR. (OT, shouldn't the maralith's HD just be changed? I mean => is a 9HD creature ever a CR 17? Why is the maralith HD 9?)

As the maralith seems to be a statistical outlier, I'd be tempted to just change the monster, rather than changing the mechanic and adding a Will save. Extra dice rolling slowing down combat, and all o' that.

Moreover, turning isn't all that great, if the outsider has teleport without error. Cowering in a corner is unlikely....so the outsider must leave and avoid the party for awhile....the fires of its frustration and rage climbing ever higher.....

 

[Nail]

In 3e I'd do something like this:

....(snip).....

While a Shaman can have access to many powers through a spirit, a shaman must be careful in the domains she selects. Domains that inherently in conflict mean that those spirits will also be in conflict, increasing the likelihood that a spirit may disfavor the Shaman......

Thanks, Kevin!

This part looks especially interesting. You've included a "casting roll" into the shaman spell casting to highlight the "bargaining with spirits" aspect. I like this, except the "casting roll" isn't necessary for other spell casters (wizard, cleric, ranger, etc.). That makes it seem out of place and at odds with the rest of the 3e magic system. I'm not against the idea of changing the magic system, but I'm not planning on doing such a sweeping change yet.

To the point: a mechanic that highlights bargaining with spirits is good, but a mechanic which requires a spell casting roll is bad. "IMC", of course.

What kind of mechanic could include the first and exclude the second?............(hmmmmmmm)

If you want me to expand on this idea, let me know.

...and here's me askin' fer it.....