Anyone else annoyed by psionics?

[Thanee]

Your memory fails you. His analyses showed the sorcerer can put out more slightly damage AND have spell slots remaining after the psion is out of PP.

As I said, slight advantage... and that using just very specific examples, which do not cover much of the whole picture.

But isn't that removing the relevance of any such analysis, as any game will have some items?

Absolutely not. It's, of course, reasonable to look at what adding in those items would change, but in general all classes will have about the same stuff available (and that changes from campaign to campaign), so basing assumptions on specific sets of equipment only is flawed, since they are not an inherent part of the class.

I obviously have no perception about what is balanced.

Nah, only a flawed one!

I do question your campaign of defamation against psionics though.

I think you are reading a bit much into my statements, really.

Campaign of defamation... sheesh...

If you look very close you will find posts of me where I try to help players of psionic characters. And I do not even post links to threads like these, there...

Why should I do that, if I just want to defame the XPH?

Regulating what goes into your game is one thing. Posting suppositions about rules which you have never even played with (no, 3.0 is not the same thing as 3.5) is entirely another.

Of course it's not. It's just very similar.
And supposition is not the same as analysis.

Or are you unable to compare the changes from 3.0 to 3.5 and how they impact the game without using every single one in play?

Well, I am not... *shrug*

Bye
Thanee

 

[Psion]

As for the astral construct overshadowing the party, was the guy a fairly high level constructor with a bunch of everything pointing towards just making constructs?

Even then though, someone focused on summon monster would do better. In nearly every case the summon monster is simply better than the equivalent level astral construct. With the constructor thrown in then the astral construct starts to be able to compete.

The constuctor is pretty routinely thought of as a powerful prestige class over on the psionics boards. If the PrC is the problem, then it seems to me the problem is the PrC.

As for the comparison in the other thread. After X number of rounds (whatever X was) the psion was out of pp but the sorc wasnt terribly far behind in damage (depending on what the sorc did it was somewhere between 40 and 70, but it was a whole lot of total damage either way). Then, after that the psion was done for the day, but the sorc just kept on going. Sure, he wasnt doing massive amounts of whatever, but he had lots of utility slots open and could still deal impressive amounts of damage

An accurate retelling, repeated for posterity.

Still, doesn't tell the whole story, but I thought I would set the record straight for those DMs out there who wish to identify the respective stengths and weaknesses of the class.

 

[Nail]

As for the comparison in the other thread. After X number of rounds (whatever X was) the psion was out of pp but the sorc wasnt terribly far behind in damage....

...but wasn't the sorcerer helped out with a metamagic rod or two? I think it's most reasonable to remove magic items (especially questionable ones!) from the comparison.

We both agree that a psion is spent after 3 combats per day, whereas a sorcerer can go on like the Energizer bunny. My question is (and will always be) "how often do people have more than 3 combats per day??!"

IME, it is the psion's ability to "front load" all the damage that makes him shine. It's an advantage! If all yer enemies are dead, who cares how many spell-slots/pps you have left? (This feels like the old 3.0e Haste debate.....)

 

[Psion]

I think you are reading a bit much into my statements, really.

Campaign of defamation... sheesh...

If you look very close you will find posts of me where I try to help players of psionic characters. And I do not even post links to threads like these, there...

Posting one-sided diatribes about how psionics are overpowered that might get taken as valid by DMs of players who might want to play psionic characters is not my definition of "helping players of psionic characters."

Pointing out which capabilities could be abusive in which situations and how to challenge such a character would be helpful. But that's not what I am seeing from you.

It seems as if every mention of psionics on this board demands a response from you about how unbalanced it is. I do not see that as reasonable. I see that as emotive. Whatever situation so soured you to psionics, I really wish you would just put it in perspective and consider the other side of the argument for once, because I really do not see you "being helpful" in any way.

Edit: Okay, that's probably not exactly fair, but it does amaze the lengths some people will go to to build a case against something they don't like. Like politics, I guess.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

We both agree that a psion is spent after 3 combats per day, whereas a sorcerer can go on like the Energizer bunny. My question is (and will always be) "how often do people have more than 3 combats per day??!"

By this logic, you should also have a problem with Barbarian Rage, Wizards, and pretty much anything else that is balanced by a certain amount of combats per day.

 

[diaglo]

I have never liked psionics, and as a DM have never allowed them in my game.

the last time psionics was almost balanced was 1976. when in Supplement III Eldritch Wizardry they were introduced.

ever since then they have been a mish mash of rules that the designers just don't know how to balance for the game.

 

[Psion]

...but wasn't the sorcerer helped out with a metamagic rod or two?

IIRC, no.

I think it's most reasonable to remove magic items (especially questionable ones!) from the comparison.

And as characters will have items in a campaign AND as such items are part and parcel of the wizard's abilities, I disagree.

We both agree that a psion is spent after 3 combats per day, whereas a sorcerer can go on like the Energizer bunny. My question is (and will always be) "how often do people have more than 3 combats per day??!"

I can't speak for anyone's games but mine, but...

First off... they don't need to be combats to spend points. Typically PCs in my game are forced to deal with an evolving situation, which may be placid for a few days (or similarly, may involve travel with 0-2 encounters a day), but when it comes to a head and nears a climax, the confrontation between the PCs and villains is at full steam, is a situation that the players cannot usually turn away from without consequences, and involves more than 3 combats or equivalent expendiatures of party capabilities.

IME, it is the psion's ability to "front load" all the damage that makes him shine. It's an advantage!

It is (though the useful role Sorren's analysis plays here is to show that their damage is not as front loaded compared to the sorcerer as some psionics bashers have assumed.) Knowing that, the GM can decide how to structure a game to give all the PCs an important role. (Edit: Before someone goes off on how they have to go out of their way to accomodate psionic characters, this is really no different than anything I have had to do for various core classes or positive LA races.)

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

IMX (always as another player; I've never DMed or played a psion), 3.5 psions make the best "blaster mages." In fact, they make the only reasonably effective blaster mages beyond 10th level.

That's not because psions are dominantly powerful (their damage is nothing special compared to, say, a frenzied berserker or ubercharge cavalier's, or even a decent power attacking standard barbarian), it's because direct damage spells do the same damage they did in 2e, even though high-level characters and creatures have 1.5 to 4 times the hp.

Psions don't look so hot compared to wizards, druids and clerics who specialize in the things they're actually good at: shapechanging, battlefield control, status effects and high level (usually self-)buffs.

As for sorcerers...

Well, when a psion outshines a sorcerer, it's not the psion's fault.

 

[Scion]

...but wasn't the sorcerer helped out with a metamagic rod or two?

I just went back and reread a good portion of that thread and no, the sorc did not have a metamagic rod.

The reason I gave such a broad spread above was because with one (the one where the sorc is farther behind) he used no metamagics at all, but the other (where he is almost the same) the sorc used metamagic (not a rod).

but then I had the numbers a little off. Without any metamagics the sorc was behind by 85 points of damage at round 11, but with them both useing empower each time (which the psion could not do with the same speed as the sorc) the difference was 70 points instead.

After that, the sorc went on to deal about as much damage again as he had done before (actually he did more than he did in the first 11 rounds, but that doesnt matter much).

If the sorc had been useing even a single metamagic rod then there would'nt even have been much of a comparison since the sorc would've blasted the psion out of the water.

So, the sorc keeps up pretty well in damage and then the psion is done for the day. But the sorc still has a bunch of utility spells left and, if necissary, can deal an incredible amount of damage still.

"how often do people have more than 3 combats per day??!"

It isnt all about combat. Say that you only have 3 combats, if the psion goes full out, and the sorc does too, then the psion will deal more damage.

However, if they later on need a few buff spells cast, need a couple of utility spells, get into a few minor skirmeshes, have a few fake outs, whatever. The sorc is in a 'much' better position than the psion.

Without any extra feats at all and just going straight head to head damage the psion is decently far ahead for damage (oh, btw, this is only for fire or cold, if useing electricity or sonic then the sorc is doing the same damage or ahead on damage suddenly). Decently far ahead in this case means 'up to 85 points of damage when the total damages are around 500.

So yes, under favorable circumstances, useing the best energy for damage, and blowing all of their load they can do more damage than the sorc.

But then they are done.

Where the sorc still has lots of options.

Now, who says that isnt balanced?

 

[Brennin Magalus]

I firmly believe psionics have no place in D&D.