Anyone else annoyed by psionics?

[Scion]

Actually, my position in that thread is that they are useful but not quite as useful as you were making them out to be. (You'll note that my second submission used cross-class ranks to bump his spot and listen scores up to levels somewhat similar to the PsyWars). However, in this case, I don't see a lot of use for them.

Spot and Listen are at their most significant when they are used to foil an ambush.

Actually, the psychic warrior had a 'much' higher spot and listen even after your second build. When I pointed it out you said that it didnt matter much. Even though the psychic warrior was likely to be able to notice pretty much anyone not maxed out in move silently and maxed dex (as he had somewhere near a +30 to both) whereas the fighter spent a few of his very few skill points to try to not always be caught flat footed. The difference between the two is huge.

Also, I take it that while in battle no one else every joins in in your games? Sound attracts others that are nearby, sometimes people will retreat and come back, other times reinforcements might've been called, or a number of other things. In those cases having the high spot and listen can help a very great deal. The summonings already tend to have scent so they will be able to get past invis incredibly easier than the construct can.

Also, since the summonings have int then they can warn the summoner about enemies approaching or something not being right, even if the construct notices something it wont warn anyone.

that it hardly seems worth mentioning the skills.

They are there if ever needed or ever useful for whatever reason.

The lantern archon has both diplomacy and sense motive. Given that it takes 10 rounds for diplomacy it may not always be useful, but sometimes, especially say with it lasting 12 rounds, one could summon it in, ask it to talk your way past someone, or to sit there and sense motive to tell you if they are lieing (this would work with a shorter duration possibly).

Of course with spot one can also read lips, so if you see a group of people talking a ways away one could summon up the archon, send it on over, and have it read some lips then zip back and tell you what it heard.

The lanturn archon can also sit there and move around behind your guys while fighting and keep on casting aid on whoever. This can be a nice little boost at times.

It isnt that these abilities are always useful, it is that they are there if needed.

Yeth hound is another nice one. Track, scent, pretty good search and survival checks, flight, bay, trip.. this guy is just a pile of abilities

It doesnt last very long, but then one is not always tracking for hours and hours, sometimes one just needs to know which way the badguy went and which door.. this guy can be summoned up and chase after them. With decent saves and DR 10/silver he will likely be able to even trip a few traps while chasing the guy and not have to worry.

Surely all of the advantages here are summed up in the ones you claim for scent.

They tend to have sent, they tend to have skills that can help, and they tend to be able to let you know if they notice something amis.

Is that better?

I've figured that it means that there's an amount of fairly high-level instructions you're capable of giving. I mean, unseen servant is unintelligent but you can tell it to sort all of the stalks of hay in a loft by weight and pile any coins it finds in separate piles by weight and denomination. You don't have to tell it to pick up each straw individually. I figure it's the same with astral constructs. You can tell it to smash that goblin. It does it. If you want it to trip the goblin, you can tell it to do that too. If you want it to carry the rope up to the bridge and tie it around the pillar, it will do that. It seems that non-intelligent doesn't mean "incapable of following instructions" but rather "incapable of exercising independent choice or modifying instructions when it would obviously be a good idea to do so."

Piling up hay bails is a single task, tell them to do it and they will. If one of those hay barrels starts to tip over because they didnt stack it properly they wont try to stop it, at best they will pick up the fallen bails and stack them again, at worst they will simply leave them on the ground as they were already 'stacked'.

I did not say 'incapable of following instructions' not even close. I even made sure to say that it can follow instructions, even ones that would seem to be complex (such as fighting). However, any task that does require int to do, or something to think through, it will not be able to do. It is like a computer that can only except very small programs.

I know that there is a better quote somewhere, but the only one I can find right now is, 'When you control a mindless being, you can communicate only basic commands, such as “come here,” “go there,” “fight,” “stand still,” and so on'

So, while 'stack hay bails' might be ok, 'walk over there and tie the rope to that' would take two seperate commands. Of course one might have to guide it through how to tie the knot.

I don't doubt this. However, you must admit that most of these spells are somewhat specialized. Glitterdust and disintegrate are about the only generally useful ones that constructs are particularly vulnerable too. Grease is also useful but, IME, is generally taken for specific anti-construct duty.

::shrugs:: there are spells out there that do so. As most creatures who cast spells will be intelligent enough to know constructs have certain immunities (and really, if the lack of a real body doesnt tip off even the more dense ones then likely you could've just told them that they were dead and they would believe you).

Still, int 3 isnt much better than this, really it isnt better at all, it is about the same. However, there are much higher int guys who are floating around the list.

There are a few more on the psionic side though that hinder the constructs. A nice little one that comes to mind is 'control body'. Now 'that' is a rough one! Make the biggest construct you have, toughen him all out, only to have the opposing manifestor take him over and beat you with it. Of course, the construct is dismissable, but that takes a standard action to accomplish. (of course, the spell is very vague in what exactly it effects, undead dont really have much for physiology, but constructs likely arent effected, still, it is fun to think about )

Still, that is just fun to think about. Really, anything that isnt on their list of immunities they are very weak against.

Yeah, disintegrate is not uncommon and is deadly to astral constructs. However, two things are very important here:

1. Astral Constructs will often have a decent touch AC (the deflection abilities really help in this regard).

Not every construct will have these, especially if they want some other ability instead. Say, like SR. For the 8th level construct he can trade in his single menu C ability to make his touch ac into an 18 (say, 16th level mage = +8, +4 from dex should be pretty easy, this is a success 75% of the time. But, if he doesnt do this (or if he gets heavy deflection from menu B instead) then it is a 95% chance. So, if they make the construct in such a way that it is 'just in case he is going to get disintegrated' or 'he needs to beef up his ac to stick around onger' instead of 'I want any other ability at all' then it wont hit very often.

Having an extra couple of percent to hit from any number of other sources is not very unlikely either, this is just the base guy (say, a bard in the party who is useing some song, some random buff spell up, the party pitched in for the banner that half of the builds on the fighter/psychic warrior thread had.. for only 30k the whole party gets +2 to a bunch of things.. oop, whole party, except that the construct is immune even if he is in your party, he wont get a bonus from the bard or from the banner, whereas pretty much all of the summonings will)

1.5 Even if the disintegrate does get the construct (as it will at least 50% of the time), as it's summoner, I'm quite likely to be glad it wasn't aimed at me. Drawing the disintegrate is a good use of an astral construct.

Same can be said for any of the summonings or constructs. But then, the summonings can make multiple targets at once

2. Summoned monsters also have several sets of spells to which they are particularly vulnerable. Magic Circle against evil and magic circle against good are prominent here but Dismissal and Holy Word et al also come to mind. Vulnerability to particular magics is a two-way street.

The magic circles I have not seen to be very prevalent, but perhaps they are in your games. Still, they only work against the proper alignment. If you know what alignment someone is then you can summon a creature of the same alignment so that they will not be able to hedge out your guy. Same goes for holy word. Dismissal is so incredibly specific that I dont think it really has a place here. Single target, only extraplanar creatures (which it may not be), SR and a will save. If you thought disintegrate has a chance of not working then this guy is right out. Also, if we are discounting spells that work specifically on the astral constructs but not much else then this spell is yet again way left out. Even beyond that, while the creatures have a template they do not necissarily come 'from' anywhere (ie they may not be extraplanar, depending on the dm).

Which means, taking another one or two rounds to finish off an opponent

I think you are misunderstanding. The sorc isnt really all that far behind in damage, sometimes he was even ahead in the comparison given before.

The thing about the extra damage later is that the sorc is still doing something at all, whereas the psion is just twiddling his thumbs. The sorc can still deal a large amount of damage if needed, the sorc can still use a pile of utility spells, the sorc is simply still active.

Does it make more sense now?

the psion is able to freely pick an appropriate energy type for damage

Yep, but all this means is that the psions direct damage will actually be useful instead of an entire party member being out to dry if he picked his spells poorly.

Good? yes. Broken/overpowered? nope, it merely fixes the problem that was there.

silence

Ahh.. now we get to horribly, incredibly broken and overpowered spells.

Too many spells have most of the components, many have vocal, somatic, and material. Is this really necissary? no, but still it is done anyway.

This one spell can counter nearly every spell in the book. No need to roll a dipel check to counter, no need to have the proper spell prepared, nothing.

This spell is horribly unbalanced. It has a ton of utility uses that are very good and its combat potential is so incredible as to be insane.

It is not a point against the psions that they are not so easily countered, it is yet another point against the brokeness of some parts of the magic system. Further supporting my statement of psionics being the most balanced form of magic yet

ability to take individual opposition out of a fight/neutralize them reliably

This is different than every other caster how? There are even nonmagical items that can help do the same thing.

'Hustle'

You dislike move actions that much? why?

 

[Scion]

Also, unless a psion is a shaper, he's spending a feat to get astral construct.

I am afraid that thanee generally ignores 'costs' such as actions, feats, specialization, and whatever else.

As for the sorc, I dont know much about them, they do get to swap out now and then though and there is that feat in tome and blood to get another spell known. Wizards however tend to have every spell in the book if they want it Scribing costs, with the proper magical item, are pretty low. Also, being able to use other wizards spell books makes all of those spells accessible. If the wizard wants every summon monster spell then he can have it.

 

[Thanee]

I am afraid that thanee generally ignores 'costs' such as actions, feats, specialization, and whatever else.

LOL

I don't recall how often I mentioned that already, but quite a few times, actually.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

I can give you that for a sorcerer, but saying that a wizard needs to learn more spells doesn't seem to have as strong an effect on me. I've yet to see the wizard that was so starved for spells that he couldn't afford to get an extra scroll or two and scribe in.

That's right. The whole point is, that the wizard needs like 4 spells for the same total. Now that's one of the more extreme cases, but on average a 2:1 ratio is not unreasonable for effective spells and powers.

All I'm saying is in this context, that the number of effective spells known is pretty high for psions (especially comparing with the sorcerer, wizards are still higher, of course - but one should also not forget the quite significant scribing costs for the spells here, which means fewer magic items). Also, that among those are lots of potential high level powers, which gives psions a large number of high level powers to choose from when manifesting.

Also, unless a psion is a shaper, he's spending a feat to get astral construct.

Of course, which is one of the main disadvantages, I always list for the psions (the quite restrictive dicipline lists). The other one is that arcane spells cover more breadth total than psionic powers (more spells available generally, especially if you expand the number of books).

Bye
Thanee

 

[warlord]

Renbot, your a troll.

 

[Staffan]

2. Eberron does not "include" psionics, nor does any other campaign setting. Do you see any new psionic powers, feats, etc in ECS? I don't recall any. There are new spells, etc. Having to buy a separate book to use psionics does not amount to including them in Eberron.

There is one feat that's pretty useless if you don't include psionics (Strong Mind), one race that's pretty pointless if you don't use psionics (kalashtar), and a type of foe focused on psionics (Dreaming Dark/Inspired/Quori). Sure, psionics isn't a huge thing with it, but it definitely supports it at least.