Anyone else annoyed by psionics?

[Scion]

Now I, on the other hand, would rate Astral Construct as worth 3 or 4 spells.

I disagree. While there are many levels of summon monster they tend to have a whole lot more options. I gave a list above, but I will repost it.

1) Reach (pretty nice ability here)
2) SR (all summon monsters have it)
3) Energy resistance (nearly very summon has it)
4) communication (all creatures of int 3 or higher understand at least one language, which is common unless specified otherwise, it is not as far as I can tell, so communicating with the animals shouldnt be much of a problem)
5) Scent (this one is 'huge'. this means that the creatures can get around invisibility to some extent and be able to perform other tasks as needed)
6) Skills (listen and spot are on most of the creatures somewhere, plus for the ones here the ape has a massive climb, which can be useful. Lots of options is what the summon monster list seems to try to be about, it doesnt always do a good job though).
7) Saves (astral construct saves tend to be pretty poor, the 9th level version has +6 to all saves, both of the two guys here for summon monster 3 almost have that [+6/+6/+2 and +7/+4/+1]
8) Specials (such as the hell hounds fire breath, with this guy at your side you might actually be able to kill off that troll, none of the other three guys are able to do that, or the earth elemental to walk through the ground to find out which tomb is the fake, or whatever other options may come up)


The melee brute of the astral construct can beat out the guy in some ways, others will be better for other situations (such as the gargantuan fiendish monstrous scorpian, against many targets his ability to grapple and sting for a pretty hefty poison will be a great boon, or the couatl for a pile of various ability uses, one single casting can turn into dozens of other spells, etc)

The astral construct has some nice choices, but very limited. The sheer amount of options that the summon monster list provides holds a great deal of power. Utility and options vs a moderatly stronger melee brute (depending on the opponent and choices, such as going for SR for a bit of help since their saves are so horrible, this cuts into either offense or defense greatly).

Like I have said though, I think the astral construct does great for what it was made for. However, it still isnt worth a whole pile of spells. It is still effectively only worth one spell.


Mmm.. colossal fiendish monstrous spider. Web someone, grapple them, keep biting until they are dead. With a 30' reach they are good to go. The construct itself is mostly immune, except that it almost cant win grapple checks (+12 difference is nice) and the fighter is in some major trouble. Plus, it should get 11 feats to play with.

Or d3 colossal fiendish monstrous centipedes Those guys are rocking it out for this comparison. Or hellcats, invisible and striking. Not many hp each, but get surrounded by the buggers without being able to see them and definite trouble ensues. Options. Against any particular opponent there is a guy to summon to fix the problem, or at least help to delay them while running (as these guys are so low in CR I wouldnt expect any to be able to hold a candle for too long, although that spider above has a chance of killing the fighter outright)

The astral construct might be able to specialize in a certain area in order to be as good as the summon monster spell, but it still lacks the number of options that it has. Over the course of the carear still more or less equal.

Astral construct does have a better feat though, augment construct. With that I think that astral construct pulls into the lead by enough for it to be worth a couple different spells. In essence it puts enough options into it to make it be able to have choices for each manifestation to be able to go for enough offense and defense.

Still, at any level the astral construct will never make a save. They do have some nice immunities, but there are lots of ways around them (in this case, such as any damage dealing spell/power). Overall its options for any one manifestation are much less than a general summon monster. Although the summon monster must keep being updated, that is easy enough (sorcs get to swap and wizards are able to have pretty much every spell out there, especially with being able to use other wizards spellbooks easily).

I keep looking at the summon list. There is some fun stuff up there d3 fiendish tyranos.. now that would put a damper on almost anyones day!

It is very unfortunate that the only feat that I know of from an easy source to improve summonings is a 2nd tier feat with the first feat being basically worthless. Would be interesting. Add on an extra option for the construct, add on +4 str and +4 con. Really though, for being such a rough feat to get, should be +4 enhancmenet str/dex/con.


Anyway, I like astral construct and I like summonings. Astral construct cut out a lot of the options in order to put a bit more beef in. It also cut it down to a single power. I feel that they cut it down to a single power to justify it loseing a lot of the versitility and the inability to summon extra of lessers (which is, on occasion, and incredibly good option.. mmm.. multiple fiendish tyranos).

They cut it down to one because they cut out a lot of options. Very difficult to add up 'spell equivalency' but I think it is misleading. It is still a single slot, it has lost a lot of versitility elsewhere.

Anyway though, out of here for now, have a good one

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I'm surprised that you're selling Astral Constructs so short Scion. They offer a good deal of the customizability of summoned monsters as long as you're not looking for magical flexibility and they do it with a lot less loss of combat power. Detecting invisible creatures is about the only combat-useful ability that summons have from the beginning but Constructs don't get until Construct VII. As spell multipliers, summoned monsters can sometimes be good.

I'm also surprised that you're overselling monsters like the collossal fiendish spider by so much. Against the fighter in the example, the fiendish spider only hits on a roll of 19--and given that he's the particular 20th level fighter that he is, he'll get an AoO for the improved grab and get to add about thirty points to his grapple check--putting him some 9 or 10 points ahead of the spider's grapple check. Its reach is the only thing likely to keep it alive long enough to take a second action. Summoned monsters can be pretty good but there aren't any of them that can hope to stand up to an equivalent level fighter for long--except the Summon Monster III critters at 5th level.

When it comes to feats, however, I think you miss the boat by a mile. Augment Summoning is not a poor feat by any stretch of the imagination. Augment Summoning, for instance, might well be enough to give the head to head Elder Earth Elemental vs. Astral Construct IX matchup to the elemental. It would probably also knock the Construct's offensive superiority down a peg or two.

As for the list:

1) Reach (pretty nice ability here)

Available to Summon Monster spells earlier and better reaches are available. Still, not as dramatic an advantage as you seem to be making it out to be. Very few creatures with excessive reach have Combat Reflexes and nearly just as few have a decent dex.

2) SR (all summon monsters have it)[/quote]

But few have enough to be worth mentioning. A celestial Bison has SR 10. A bralani Eladrin has SR 16. Etc. In most of these cases, level appropriate opponents will have to roll no more than a 4 to overcome their SR. Occasionally, it will be worthwhile. . . but only very occasionally.

3) Energy resistance (nearly very summon has it)
4) communication (all creatures of int 3 or higher understand at least one language, which is common unless specified otherwise, it is not as far as I can tell, so communicating with the animals shouldnt be much of a problem)

Astral Constructs are actually better here since they can receive commands telepathicallly and that cannot be overheard and is not blocked by silence, etc.

As to language, it's my understanding that the base language for celestial creatures is celestial and for fiendish creatures is fiendish. It may be that an overly literal reading of the core rules implies otherwise but, at a minimum, that's a reasonable understanding of the descriptions of where fiendish and celestial creatures come from.

5) Scent (this one is 'huge'. this means that the creatures can get around invisibility to some extent and be able to perform other tasks as needed)
6) Skills (listen and spot are on most of the creatures somewhere, plus for the ones here the ape has a massive climb, which can be useful. Lots of options is what the summon monster list seems to try to be about, it doesnt always do a good job though).

Other than summoning outsiders for a chat or advice, I don't see the physical skills of creatures as being very significant. Spot and Listen generally just do a worse job at what the monsters can already do with Scent. (It's not as though you summon a monster to guard you through the night). Climb is impressive but I'm pretty sure that flying is better 99% of the time. Etc.

7) Saves (astral construct saves tend to be pretty poor, the 9th level version has +6 to all saves, both of the two guys here for summon monster 3 almost have that [+6/+6/+2 and +7/+4/+1]

This is definitely a weakness for Astral Constructs. On the other hand, as constructs, they're flat out immune to an awful lot of spells. That's worth something right there.

8) Specials (such as the hell hounds fire breath, with this guy at your side you might actually be able to kill off that troll, none of the other three guys are able to do that, or the earth elemental to walk through the ground to find out which tomb is the fake, or whatever other options may come up)

This is somewhat misleading. Summoned monsters get more specials at once but generally only one or two will be useful and the creatures that have them are otherwise subpar. An Astral Construct, OTOH, can be given a lot of really useful specials (especially once you hit Astral Construct IV). And they don't lose a whole lot of their beatstick abilities by getting them. One of the unfortunate things about Summon Monster spells is that, if you want to get something to kill the troll, you need to get something that will barely use up the troll's full attack. On the other hand, an Astral Construct IV with energized attacks can stand up to the troll for a few rounds AND kill it.

 

[evanger]

I agree that Psionics are Annoying! I have always thought that Psionics should be different from Magic; both in effect and in gameplay mechanics. I don't want the powers of the mind to be simply another way to cast the same spells. I want a completely different method of "casting", and completely different effects than spells and spell-casting can provide.

To this end, I have been working on coverting the mechanics from "the Force" in d20 Star Wars over to D&D. Combined with some of the most interesting bits from both the OGL d20 Modern psionics, I think this provides the absolute best alternate.

Two more Psionics gripes:
1. The 3.0 Psionics Handbook violated the spirit of the D20 system (i.e. every roll is made up of a d20 + inherent skill + learned skill) by (among other things) having the mind-to-mind combat resolved using a chart... I couldn't believe it. I understand they have taken that offensive bit out of the 3.5 Psionics Handbook... I still won't buy it.

2. Eberron does not "include" psionics, nor does any other campaign setting. Do you see any new psionic powers, feats, etc in ECS? I don't recall any. There are new spells, etc. Having to buy a separate book to use psionics does not amount to including them in Eberron.

 

[Dinkeldog]

First, psionics do appear in fantasy literature. For starters, try any of Katherine Kurtz's Deryni books, then you can start looking at Andre Norton's Witchworld, and round it out with Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar and Guardian books. There's plenty there.

Second, the real lack of the astral construct in XPH is the loss of creating 1d3 of Monster Summoning n-1 creatures or d4+1 Monster Summoning n-2 creatures. Sometimes it's better to have more smaller things than one larger thing. Not always, but sometimes. The summoner in the game I'm DMing does it an awful lot.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

I agree that Psionics are Annoying! I have always thought that Psionics should be different from Magic; both in effect and in gameplay mechanics. I don't want the powers of the mind to be simply another way to cast the same spells. I want a completely different method of "casting", and completely different effects than spells and spell-casting can provide.

You'll find, if you look in XPH and compare spells, that psions do certain effects much better than arcane or divine casters, and others much worse. Heck, check out this thread and the artillery thread for contrasting examples. In general, psions are much better at using mind-affecting powers, but aren't very good at helping their friends. They also do have a distinctly different feel.

To this end, I have been working on coverting the mechanics from "the Force" in d20 Star Wars over to D&D. Combined with some of the most interesting bits from both the OGL d20 Modern psionics, I think this provides the absolute best alternate.

We used the Force in one D&D game; we had elven and gnomish force-users; it worked reasonably well, though you'd probably need to limit the Force skills to special classes and not make them nearly as cool as the Jedi guardian and consular (who, after all, get good saves because of setting considerations).

Of course, we also had random psions, too. They had about the same level of involvement among the PCs (i.e. no more than dabbling), but were there and affected each other.

1. The 3.0 Psionics Handbook violated the spirit of the D20 system (i.e. every roll is made up of a d20 + inherent skill + learned skill) by (among other things) having the mind-to-mind combat resolved using a chart... I couldn't believe it. I understand they have taken that offensive bit out of the 3.5 Psionics Handbook... I still won't buy it.

Gone. Mental combat is gone, too; the offensive and defensive modes are now powers that have been folded into the main power set. Of course, it didn't resolve using a chart; certain offensive modes affected save DCs of the defense modes, so you did need to look at the chart, but you still used the roll to determine what happens.

Find a Borders or Barnes & Noble, kick someone out of a chair, and sit down and have a look at XPH. It's leagues better, I think.

2. Eberron does not "include" psionics, nor does any other campaign setting. Do you see any new psionic powers, feats, etc in ECS? I don't recall any. There are new spells, etc. Having to buy a separate book to use psionics does not amount to including them in Eberron.

True, you can play Eberron without using the XPH. However, one of the potential opponents, the Quori, are written as using psionics, and the creator of the setting stated that while you can substitute them as sorcerers, they're not nearly as cool.

Brad

 

[Scion]

I'm surprised that you're selling Astral Constructs so short Scion.

Nah, not selling short, merely mentioning its shortcomings. It is important not to ask it to do more than it can and summon monsters, while having issues of their own, do have a few nice advantages over the other. Hence the problem with saying that astral construct is so incredibly overpowerful as some have said (saying it is worth 3 or 4 is effectively doing so). At best it is misleading, it simply doesnt 'mean' anything except that it will make people feel it is overpowered when it isnt. I have tried to stress that it is a nice option, and good for what it was made to be good at, but it still falls short in a few areas.

I'm also surprised that you're overselling monsters like the collossal fiendish spider by so much. Against the fighter in the example, the fiendish spider only hits on a roll of 19--and given that he's the particular 20th level fighter that he is, he'll get an AoO for the improved grab and get to add about thirty points to his grapple check--putting him some 9 or 10 points ahead of the spider's grapple check.

I still find it odd that a guy completely covered in a spider web is able to weild his thw properly, but still, sure. It doesnt matter much anyway, mainly because the spider should have zero chance of doing anything useful to the fighter. Of course, the spider does get 11 feats, maybe one of those will negate his ability to counter the aoo.

So, he is entangled (likely), being attacked by a guy with a 30' reach, might get hit and poisoned (he actually might fail the save, possibly, and if he does he is in for some serious hurt), and might be grappled (if successful he probably wont be able to escape. All of this from a guy who should effectively pose him no challenge at all ::shrugs::

Still an option

When it comes to feats, however, I think you miss the boat by a mile. Augment Summoning is not a poor feat by any stretch of the imagination.

I did not say it was bad (as least I didnt mean to if I did) I said it doesnt give enough for its cost. Basically it costs two feats for what it does since the first feat mostly has no effect at all. For its cost I would think that it would help as it does, and help out where most animals have the biggest deficit, in their AC. So, making it an enhancement bonus makes it slightly worse, but giving the +4 to dex as well helps it out. I figured it was a good tradeoff.

I think the feat is great, and it is likely too strong for a first teir, but given its prereqs I think it misses how powerful it should be.

Available to Summon Monster spells earlier and better reaches are available. Still, not as dramatic an advantage as you seem to be making it out to be.

I said it was a factor. It is what people have told me makes the halfogre unplayable. So, I figured I would put it up on here. It is a bonus after all. It can be very nice indeed, especially in a few interesting circumstances.

But few have enough to be worth mentioning. A celestial Bison has SR 10. A bralani Eladrin has SR 16. Etc. In most of these cases, level appropriate opponents will have to roll no more than a 4 to overcome their SR. Occasionally, it will be worthwhile. . . but only very occasionally.

But, it is there. At least some of the time it will save them.

Also, not always are your opponents the same level or higher. Sometimes they might even use wands. In any circumstance where the caster level is lower than a full caster of the same level you are it grows in power.

So, at least some of the time it will save them. This is what matters. It is yet another benefit that can help that the astral construct does not have. Sometimes it matters more, sometimes less, but it is always there just in case.

The only way the astral construct can even try is by spending a menu C ability. Although it isnt quite as good as the menu C ability it is still close, and summon monsters have it from the very beginning.

As to language

::shrugs:: those are the rules of course. It would make sense that they would understand both common and language X actually. Still, who knows what the primary languages are of whatever realm they come from, assumeing that they are even 'real' to begin with.

Other than summoning outsiders for a chat or advice, I don't see the physical skills of creatures as being very significant. Spot and Listen generally just do a worse job at what the monsters can already do with Scent. (It's not as though you summon a monster to guard you through the night). Climb is impressive but I'm pretty sure that flying is better 99% of the time. Etc.

I know that you, for some reason, put a very low value on both spot and listen (as we saw in the fighter/psychic warrior thread) but personally I think they are very good indeed.

Various spells that can be cast can be very nice, various skills may be used, and other nice little abilities are very good.

Sure, the guys arent around very long, but their senses help them to pick up where foes are. Even if you dont know that they are there it helps greatly.

Sometimes being able to have a climb speed is good, sometimes having a swim speed is good, sometimes just being able to do whatever random task you need helps.

The astral construct is nonintelligent. It can only do what you tell it and so one must direct it constantly for tasks that would require thinking (strangely, combat seems to not require intelligence, what does that say about the world? )

This is definitely a weakness for Astral Constructs. On the other hand, as constructs, they're flat out immune to an awful lot of spells. That's worth something right there.

Of course, but then there are also spells that will hurt them specifically.

Immune to some? sure, that is always cool. However, most people know what constructs are immune to anyway so know how to work around it. The lack of saves is definately a bit painful. Disintegrate? dead construct. (I dont know how common it is in your games, generally pc's in my games always have at least a couple of those sitting around 'just in case' once they get high enough to do so.. it is just too generally useful, constructs, undead, random walls, whatever)

This is somewhat misleading.

Just putting it forth as another thing that they have, but it isnt very specific. It isnt so much misleading as it is incomplete. But completing it would take hours so I was hopeing that the general and a few examples would help. I guess not.

Summonings tend to have a series of specials that all of them get. SR is a pretty big one, energy resistance is another, DR is yet another, and a whole bunch of various others such as scent, constriction, various spell like abilities, whatever.. the list goes on and on (even blood drain, if that floats your boat).

The astral construct three that you put up against the troll earlier has pretty much zero chance of killing the troll. Each round the troll has a good chance of simply killing it outright. The astral construct four will last for a little bit longer, but mainly only because of its 2 more points of AC. d6 +10 + d4 fire is pretty good damage, and the troll has a pretty low ac, but it is only 15.5 damage on average and the troll gets 5 back each round.

Actually, for level 4 summon monster the celestial lion is pretty nice. It charges, gets an aoo from the troll (likely to hit), the lion then gets claw, claw, rake, rake, bite (attempt to grapple, if it succeeds then it gets two more rakes). As the troll is evil one of those can have an extra 5 points of damage, helping to stave off the death. If it is grappled (far from assured) then it is in a bad situation, it basically has to break off the grapple, then the lion can try again next round.

It will still lose most of the time, but it can keep the troll for quite some time indeed.

Against less.. difficult.. foes this lion guy might be able to pounce several times during the battle, upping the damage by a great deal that it deals. Fun times.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I know that you, for some reason, put a very low value on both spot and listen (as we saw in the fighter/psychic warrior thread) but personally I think they are very good indeed.

Actually, my position in that thread is that they are useful but not quite as useful as you were making them out to be. (You'll note that my second submission used cross-class ranks to bump his spot and listen scores up to levels somewhat similar to the PsyWars). However, in this case, I don't see a lot of use for them.

Spot and Listen are at their most significant when they are used to foil an ambush. However, since summoned creatures never last much longer than two minutes, they're highly unlikely to be around to notice a sneaking foe and give warning. The same is true for sleight of hand and other rolls opposed by spot. The odds of having the summoned creature around when those ranks would be useful is pretty miniscule. Unless I'm missing something, that just leaves pinpointing enemy's locations through concealment and/or spotting hiding and invisible enemies. However, those are rather difficult tasks to begin with even for creatures with decent skills and are pretty much made moot by their possession of Scent, blindsight, or other abilities. The celestial animal's scent and the Avoral's True Seeing are so much better than spot/listen for finding invisible foes, etc that it hardly seems worth mentioning the skills.

Various spells that can be cast can be very nice, various skills may be used, and other nice little abilities are very good.

Sure, the guys arent around very long, but their senses help them to pick up where foes are. Even if you dont know that they are there it helps greatly.

Sure, but if they can do it with scent, why bother? Keen senses are a significant advantage but it seems like pressing the point a little too much to list it three times over. Surely all of the advantages here are summed up in the ones you claim for scent.

Sometimes being able to have a climb speed is good, sometimes having a swim speed is good, sometimes just being able to do whatever random task you need helps.

The astral construct is nonintelligent. It can only do what you tell it and so one must direct it constantly for tasks that would require thinking (strangely, combat seems to not require intelligence, what does that say about the world? )

I've figured that it means that there's an amount of fairly high-level instructions you're capable of giving. I mean, unseen servant is unintelligent but you can tell it to sort all of the stalks of hay in a loft by weight and pile any coins it finds in separate piles by weight and denomination. You don't have to tell it to pick up each straw individually. I figure it's the same with astral constructs. You can tell it to smash that goblin. It does it. If you want it to trip the goblin, you can tell it to do that too. If you want it to carry the rope up to the bridge and tie it around the pillar, it will do that. It seems that non-intelligent doesn't mean "incapable of following instructions" but rather "incapable of exercising independent choice or modifying instructions when it would obviously be a good idea to do so."

This is definitely a weakness for Astral Constructs. On the other hand, as constructs, they're flat out immune to an awful lot of spells. That's worth something right there.

Of course, but then there are also spells that will hurt them specifically.

Immune to some? sure, that is always cool. However, most people know what constructs are immune to anyway so know how to work around it.

I don't doubt this. However, you must admit that most of these spells are somewhat specialized. Glitterdust and disintegrate are about the only generally useful ones that constructs are particularly vulnerable too. Grease is also useful but, IME, is generally taken for specific anti-construct duty.

The lack of saves is definately a bit painful. Disintegrate? dead construct. (I dont know how common it is in your games, generally pc's in my games always have at least a couple of those sitting around 'just in case' once they get high enough to do so.. it is just too generally useful, constructs, undead, random walls, whatever

Yeah, disintegrate is not uncommon and is deadly to astral constructs. However, two things are very important here:

1. Astral Constructs will often have a decent touch AC (the deflection abilities really help in this regard). That won't stop everything but a 20th level wizard with a modified 20 dex (+6 gloves) will still generally have a possibility of missing the construct without rolling a 1--especially if he doesn't have point blank and precise shot.

1.5 Even if the disintegrate does get the construct (as it will at least 50% of the time), as it's summoner, I'm quite likely to be glad it wasn't aimed at me. Drawing the disintegrate is a good use of an astral construct.

2. Summoned monsters also have several sets of spells to which they are particularly vulnerable. Magic Circle against evil and magic circle against good are prominent here but Dismissal and Holy Word et al also come to mind. Vulnerability to particular magics is a two-way street.

 

[Thanee]

What's misleading, when saying Astral Construct is worth more effective spells than the individual Summon Monster spells?

Both have their advantages and disadvantages and are as a whole probably about even, but the wizard needs like 4 Summon Monster spells to get a decent coverage, the psion needs only 1 power.

Equal in power, but contains more "spell knowledge", since the wizard needs to learn multiple spells to get the same coverage.

That's all I was saying.

Bye
Thanee

 

[uzagi_akimbo]

Just to add another drop to the churning lake of Psionics vs sorcerer's magic and ability to nuke....

As Scion pointed out, a sorcerer will be able to deliver as much damage through energy as a psion does, given time. That is right. the problem is, it sis also a disadvantage

Now in my experience, slower damage delivery can be a real drain on resources in a damage system like the HP system used by D20, because there are no real penalties attached to having rather low HP - one just keeps on fighting until dropping unconscious, at undiminished ability.

Which means, taking another one or two rounds to finish off an opponent (or even several, say with a second and third fireball ) usually means the opposition getting another rounds of attacks in - which means additional resources spend by the PCs to recover or deal with those threads, hence additional cost. It may even make the difference between a PC's survival or demise, the ultimate price. Say, against a bunch of Frost giants who had the good foresight to use a resist energy-fire potion before mashing the PCs... who will get in several nice crushing blows or boulders before the sorcerer finally destroys them through application of overwhelming firepower. While the Psion calmly picks lightning or sonics for his next attack (if he didn't on the first try ). Of course this does not even take into account that the sorcerer may have to use a less effective spell in the first place, because his primary attack spell (say "Firebrand") gets resisted by the targets, and so does the alrternate energy form for it (if he even picks, or is able to pick, the nergy substitution feat...

As the psion is able to freely pick an appropriate energy type for damage means he will usually deliver (even an initially lesser amount ) straight through the gap of a target's resistances in a single attack - hence higher speed at achieving the oposition's takedown, ergo less attacks by that opposition.

And even with Energy Substitution (admixture) a sorcerer needs one feat for each energy type to convert the basic spell into. Plus, the spell becoming a full round action, limiting his tactical choices at positioning etc... Pretty good advantage, without ever having boosted the spell from its initial version.

Sorry, that is one heck of an advantage, especially in a "multiple combats a day" situation, where clerics and heal items start feeling the strain, because the oppostion get blows in itself...




Plus, what gets me most about psions is the difficulty in shutting down their power-use efficiently - silence etc. are hard pressed to counter these, and especially in situation where the 'limitation' is one of social pressure/observation, they beat their arcane competition hands down. Much easier to cover up the funny smell or hum caused by the psion, then the arm waving and chanting of the sorcerer.

Third bone of contention - the psion's ability to take individual opposition out of a fight/neutralize them reliably for set amounts of time with only 3rd level powers is for one deeply boring to players who get struck by them (ok, when does my Half-orc barbarian come back - six rounds ? guess I go and pick up som pizza), and usually very powerful in some situations, as the designers rather mistakenly seemed to believe that simply being unable to harm someone for a set time is adequate compensation for the victim being utterly helpless while their friends get slaughtered, their foes buff up and create a deadly cross-fire situation with readied attacks..etc... stuff like Time Hop , Ectoplasmic Cocoon, Crisis of Breath.... Bang, there goes the bodyguard troll.. sure we have to deal with him in a few rounds, but in the meantime, we rip the mage apart who would have cast at us from the safe position behind the troll...

Not to mention stuff like 'Hustle', where someone obviously did not note the brokenness of "Haste" in v3.0 and that it was reworked for v3.5 , or thought it was limited to spell casting..... I guess they consider eliminating the entire feat chain for "cast on the run" by a third level power, or fullattacking-spring attacking psy warriors rather balanced.... (especially as they changed "Haste" to prevent just these to be possible ).

I will not even start on the massive problems with soulknives, psy warriors and whats-nots, because this is a debate about psion vs. arcane firepower.

 

[Dinkeldog]

What's misleading, when saying Astral Construct is worth more effective spells than the individual Summon Monster spells?

Both have their advantages and disadvantages and are as a whole probably about even, but the wizard needs like 4 Summon Monster spells to get a decent coverage, the psion needs only 1 power.

Equal in power, but contains more "spell knowledge", since the wizard needs to learn multiple spells to get the same coverage.

That's all I was saying.

Bye
Thanee

I can give you that for a sorcerer, but saying that a wizard needs to learn more spells doesn't seem to have as strong an effect on me. I've yet to see the wizard that was so starved for spells that he couldn't afford to get an extra scroll or two and scribe in.

Also, unless a psion is a shaper, he's spending a feat to get astral construct.