Anyone else annoyed by psionics?
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![:]](http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png "Devious :]")
). If it's the mechanics that is bothering you, buy BESM d20 and run Eberron with that.
Thanee
First Post
Just a few comments... EDIT: ok, maybe a bit more than that... 
At least when they were used against us. 
And not all opponents have high hit points, really.
Tho, what it boils down to I certainly agree with, that disabling spells are better than damaging spells at higher levels.
That's the only situation I was talking about when comparing with the Mystic Theurge. That is after the sorcerer has used up a good portion of their spells to make about the same impact that the psion did (with fewer more powerful manifestations).
The MT example IMHO shows, that the low level spells, which are what the sorcerer mostly has left, are not so hot compared to the lack of high level power, tho, that lack is not as high as with the MT (since the sorcerer has high level spells). That's all.
You can do A LOT more with those spell slots or their equivalent in PP than just deal damage. That's why I usually speak of effects rather than damage. That could be anything from a Dimension Door, an Energy Ball to a Dominate. All those are powerful effects, which you cannot recreate with low level slots.
Damage just isn't everything.
And psions get "Limited Wish", too (8th level, tho). I think Psychic Reformation greatly sidesteps their restrictions (which are already much smaller than the sorcerer's (but not the wizard's of course)) in terms of Powers Known.
That's what I try to show with the picture, if you move one level up and go away from pure damage, it is much better to see, as pure damage comparisons are a bit deceptive.
But "much worse"!?
It has a lower effective cost eventually (10 PP which is not the equivalent of a 20th CL 6th level spell, it's even less than the equivalent of a 11th CL 6th level spell), and includes several versions between Dispel and Greater Dispel.
Ok, that's the advantages, now where are the disadvantages?
I'd really like to see how you come to that conclusion.
Spontaneous Manifesting anyone?
The psion is more generalist than the sorcerer there, actually. Only thing that keeps the sorcerer afloat is the better breadth in spell selection (class spell list).
) is one of the reasons, as it includes all powers not just one school/discipline. Or Overchannel, which also works on all powers.
).
You think, that psions are more in line with the other classes as a whole, while I think sorcerers/wizards are already in line with them and thus psions are not.
Bye
Thanee
Note, that I didn't say you observation is wrong, I just havn't noticed the same thing in our games. Spells like Horrid Wilting (for pretty high level damage dealing) are... well... horrid!Scion said:
At least when they were used against us. And not all opponents have high hit points, really.
Tho, what it boils down to I certainly agree with, that disabling spells are better than damaging spells at higher levels.
Just think it's incomplete.
Not after they have been used up.
That's the only situation I was talking about when comparing with the Mystic Theurge. That is after the sorcerer has used up a good portion of their spells to make about the same impact that the psion did (with fewer more powerful manifestations).The MT example IMHO shows, that the low level spells, which are what the sorcerer mostly has left, are not so hot compared to the lack of high level power, tho, that lack is not as high as with the MT (since the sorcerer has high level spells). That's all.
See, that is exactly what I mean, when I say comparing damage isn't showing the whole picture.
You can do A LOT more with those spell slots or their equivalent in PP than just deal damage. That's why I usually speak of effects rather than damage. That could be anything from a Dimension Door, an Energy Ball to a Dominate. All those are powerful effects, which you cannot recreate with low level slots.
Damage just isn't everything.
That, and after he is burnt out, the sorcerer keeps up to the total with the remaining spells, so the total is roughly equal, but the psion has the advantage of being able to shell out more in a shorter amount of time (if he chooses to, which he does not have to).
Even if you always switch back, this is a cost, which I would gladly pay. Heck I use Limited Wish all the time, when I have it.
And psions get "Limited Wish", too (8th level, tho). I think Psychic Reformation greatly sidesteps their restrictions (which are already much smaller than the sorcerer's (but not the wizard's of course)) in terms of Powers Known.
That's the problem, they do only keep up after having spent the remainder of their spells. They are not so close (unless you count optimum circumstances for the sorcerer, which the psion does not need thanks to changing energy types and whatnot) at the point the psion is spent (and the sorcerer has spells left).
That's what I try to show with the picture, if you move one level up and go away from pure damage, it is much better to see, as pure damage comparisons are a bit deceptive.
I'd even dareI think you need to check the Astral Constructs again. While they lack the spellcasting ability, some summoned creatures have, they are a lot more powerful in combat. Different focus, but the power level isn't lower for sure.
That's all I'm saying. That the Energy powers are better than compareable spells one-by-one. Whether that is a good or bad thing, is not relevant. What is relevant, that the sorcerer/wizard needs to learn more spells to achieve the same amount of knowledge.
In what way? Only thing that it lacks is counterspelling I think, but that's certainly more than balanced by the fact, that powers cannot be counterspelled at all.
But "much worse"!?
It has a lower effective cost eventually (10 PP which is not the equivalent of a 20th CL 6th level spell, it's even less than the equivalent of a 11th CL 6th level spell), and includes several versions between Dispel and Greater Dispel.
Ok, that's the advantages, now where are the disadvantages?
*blink*
I'd really like to see how you come to that conclusion.
The ability to do it, sure. The cost to apply it is not (but neither is it for the metamagic).
Well, plenty people (just take a look at those threads that talk about sorcerer feat selection) say Heighten is very good for sorcerers. And a higher save DC is very good, regardless of how you put it.
Yeah. Just that the first some is not the same as the other some.
Spontaneous Manifesting anyone?
Not in 3.5 until maybe Complete Arcane puts it back in (and supersedes Energy Affinity again). Right now, Energy Affinity is the 3.5 Energy Substitution.
Which can be suppressed (without spending feats) and are not even nearly as restrictive, yeah.
That is a question, that is not easily answered. To you, as we know, the problem lies with the arcanists. I think (and most balance between 3.5 core classes threads underline this opinion) that the core classes are fine balance-wise.
Nah, when it's better to empower and penetrate +4 compared to augment (which is not as good as empower, of course), but penetrate +8, for example.
The wizard, ok, but the sorcerer with the incredibly slim spell selection (spells known)?
The psion is more generalist than the sorcerer there, actually. Only thing that keeps the sorcerer afloat is the better breadth in spell selection (class spell list).
Though, the specialist only needs to pick up a a single or a few powers to obtain this specialization, maybe a feat or two. So it's easily possible to specialize in multiple of those areas (blasting, summoning, etc.) at the same time, which is more akin to a high-powered generalist (with a good portion of the breadth of a true generalist, but the whole power of a specialist across the board), actually. Stuff like Endowment (I know you think it's weak
) is one of the reasons, as it includes all powers not just one school/discipline. Or Overchannel, which also works on all powers.Yeah, I can see how some find them boring, they are in a way. But most people who now like sorcerers (including myself) only learned to really know how fun they are after playing them for a while. That's something you cannot make up on numbers, as it is just a feel. Certainly not everyone will have the same priorities and that's a good thing, but fun isn't really what this is about (and the psion, as you said, would win here anyways
).So, in fact, we both have the same opinion, just different perceptions on what that means compared to the other classes (other than psions and sorcerers/wizards, that is).
You think, that psions are more in line with the other classes as a whole, while I think sorcerers/wizards are already in line with them and thus psions are not.
Bye
Thanee
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Thanee said:Note, that I didn't say you observation is wrong, I just havn't noticed the same thing in our games. Spells like Horrid Wilting (for pretty high level damage dealing) are... well... horrid!
Horrid wilting is over a very large area, can distinguish individual targets, and doesnt do elemental damage.
Still, even then its damage is not great except against pc's (note that a pc's CR is roughly equal to its level, but monsters of the same CR can have much, much higher hp, sometimes an order of magnitude higher, although that is pretty rare). So, I was not talking about pc class vs pc class, I was talking about pc vs monster. It is a very odd, and unfortunate, quirk of the system. But still, when working out of the monstrous manual what I said holds firmly true.
There are edge cases, such as one guys campaign that came up during the discussion of the brilliant energy weapon enhancement. For the most part it is a pretty worthless enhancement, but it was breaking his game because all of his high level guys were pc classes (or npc classes) and the most dangerous ones all wore full plate.
So sure, if one is a pure pc class (with a d4 hd, which even one of the main designers said he didnt want in the game anyway), with a lack of a con score (at higher levels less than a 16 with a d4 hd is the same as commiting suicide anyway, monsters deal quite a bit of damage very fast), and does not take appropriate precautions (hey, ring of spell turning, now you take 0 damage from horrid wilting!), then sure, they are in trouble.
Still, this is a bit of a sidetrack all around. The point still stands though, at higher levels things are more resistant and immune and have many, many more hp than in previous editions, whereas the damage dealing spells have stayed the same. Even mages have many more hp than in previous editions, along with having access to some pretty impressive defenses against whatever they are worried about.
Thanee said:
You mean that the picture about how much damage can be dealt vs how much damage can be dealt is incomplete because they didnt talk about other non damaging sources? Nah, that was brought up later. The first part was used as a basis to work on just how much of what is being done. It is a basis, it is not meant to be complete for all situations, nor did he even try to make it so. One can even go so far as to say it is useless since only a very few psions will even be able to keep up in damage like that (kineticist only power after all). Not everyone is a kineticist and not everyone wants to burn a feat.
Thanee said:Not after they have been used up.
Unimportant. The sorc has already done much, much more than the theurge could do.
Next, the psion is done for the day but the sorc keeps on kicking. It isnt about him being so incredibly effective as to stomp everything down. It is that he 'is' still effective whereas the psion is not. The sorc still has many powerful options whereas the psion might have a crossbow or a dagger or something, maybe he will just cower in the corner and hope no one notices him. But the sorc is still putting out pretty impressive damage (not as impressive as before, roughly half as much per round really, but he is still doing much, much more than the psion.. or he could be doing tons of utility work, whereas the psion will not).
That is why the theurge comparison breaks down, it isnt about low level spells being incredible, it is about doing a whole lot, roughly keeping up, and then still being able to go on long after the psion is completely done.
Thanee said:
Not in a regular game, but it was for that particular exercise since that is what it was comparing. For a comparison of straight damage then yes, damage is everything.
Still, even beyond that a good portion of the good damage dealing powers are kineticst only. Specialist vs generalist again. I certainly hope that the specialist wins.
Not only is it not everything but not every psion will even do anything like that. But, when someone says, 'but he just trumps everyone in damage!' it was easy enough to see that the difference was not all that big, and over time it was actually completely wrong.
Thanee said:
Fiendish ape
Large Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 4d8+11 (29 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), climb 30 ft.
Armor Class: 14 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +3 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+12
Attack: Claws +7 melee (1d6+5)
Full Attack: 2 claws +7 melee (1d6+5) and bite +2 melee (1d6+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Smite good
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, dark vision, scent, DR 5/magic, Fire and cold resist 5, SR 9
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +2
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 7
Skills: Climb +14, Listen +6, Spot +6
Feats: Alertness, Toughness
Combat
Skills: Apes have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened.
Smite Good (Su): Once per day the creature can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD total (maximum of +20) against a good foe.
Special Qualities: A fiendish creature retains all the special qualities of the base creature and also gains the following.
—Darkvision out to 60 feet.
If a fiendish creature gains damage reduction, its natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Celestial bison
Large Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 5d8+15 (37 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (–1 size, +4 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+13
Attack: Gore +8 melee (1d8+9)
Full Attack: Gore +8 melee (1d8+9)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Stampede, smite evil
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, darkvision, scent, DR 5/magic, acid/cold/electricity resistance 5, SR 10
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +4, Will +1
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 3, Wis 11, Cha 4
Skills: Listen +7, Spot +5
Feats: Alertness, Endurance
Combat
Stampede (Ex): A frightened herd of bison flees as a group in a random direction (but always away from the perceived source of danger). They literally run over anything of Large size or smaller that gets in their way, dealing 1d12 points of damage for each five bison in the herd (Reflex DC 18 half ). The save DC is Strength-based.
Smite Evil (Su): Once per day a celestial creature can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD (maximum of +20) against an evil foe.
Astral construct 3
Medium Construct
Hit Dice: 3d10+20 (36 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (+2 Dex, +8 natural), touch 12, flatfooted 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+7
Attack: Slam +7 melee (1d6+7)
Full Attack: Slam +7 melee (1d6+7)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: One ability from Menu A, construct traits, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +3, Will +1
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 15, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 10
The astral construct has a better ac, but that is pretty much it. In just about every other way it is inferior, but it is more custamizeable. Even then though the summon monster could be used for a host of different creatures with other various abilities, these guys are just for comparing beat sticks (there are actually several other beat sticks that are good in other situations, such as the fiendish dire weasel with its massive con damage attack).
So, the summon monster does more damage, has a great variety of options, comes with a host of abilities for each (celestial and fiendish both add on quite a few things that are each menu choices, but since the constructs tend to only get 1 choice they will likely not have whatever), and are the all around better solution (as you can also opt to get multiple lower level ones when needed).
For the above guys I think that the reach issues pretty much win, let alone doing more damage and the DR (which, at lower levels, not everyone is likely to have. Also, the summoned guys break through DR magic whereas the constructs do not).
It is still a great power, but it tends to be beaten out by individual summon monsters when compared. Which is fine, lesser cost for lesser benefit but useable over a larger period (augmentation).
Thanee said:
But since it is that the arcanist versions are worthless and that problem is fixed somewhat with the psionic versions, then comparing whether it is overall a good thing or not is relevant.
Energy spells tend to be useless. Energy powers might just be useful. Sounds like the second is the way to go.
Thanee said:
You obviously need to check greater dispel, you have missed something important.
Thanee said:
No, only some powers do it. But then those powers were already limited in other ways. So, some have a virtual heighten that they have already paid for in different areas. Dont overlook the costs.
Thanee said:
::shrugs::
Thanee said:Yeah. Just that the first some is not the same as the other some.
Spontaneous Manifesting anyone?
Says you. I have seen both in action (wizards and psions), they both have their own strengths and weaknesses, they both work just fine. Both have some issues, but then the magic issues are larger and more numerous than the psionic issues.
Also, nearly unlimited number of spells to choose from anyone? Ability to aquire brand new spells very rapidly anyone? Ability to use pearls of power instead of incredibly inferior crystals anyone?
The list goes on and on. Once again, both sides have their ups and downs. However, it is a completely different class. The only reason these sort of comparisons are being done is to help show people that they are fine.
Should we now go through and compare the cleric with the wizard? Bet who is going to come out incredibly far ahead of the other in that one.
Even if the psion was greatly better than the wizard (which I do not believe to be the case, both through experimentation and overall values for various abilities) if we then were to compare with other classes (such as the cleric) likely they would still be far behind on that power curve anyway.
One might try to say, 'but everyone knows class XXXX is broken!'. Who cares, we are discussion comparisons with the core. Psions are very different in a lot of ways, and very similar in a lot of ways as well, to other classes in the core. No one class can be compared directly or across all boundaries and ignoring all of the weaknesses only to focus on percieved strengths just doesnt work.
For the most part I have simply been trying to show the other side, mainly the one that thanee wishes to sweep under the rug and ignore. There are costs, there are penalties, and overall the class is well balanced.
Sure, better at their specialization than nonspecialized guys (sometimes). No harm in that, that is how the game is run, for every class.
Thanee said:
No, right now energy affinity is the energy affinity of 3.5. Energy substitution is a seperate feat altogether. Although they do have similar effects.
Thanee said:
Which, as a brief look through the monstrous manual will show you, is not correct.
Between natural resistances, various templates, spells, items, classes, and who knows what else most anyone/anything can be resistant or immune to the energy types.
However, that is not to say that the psionic versions do not have weaknesses. The lack of scaling is a huge liability when compared with the scaling of the arcane versions. Flexibility at the cost of power (the psion can specialize and dump all of his resources for the day to make it outshine the sorc by a bit, but then that is trading in flexibility to get some power back, tradeoffs, costs, these are not to be ignored).
Thanee said:
Here I will disagree with you completely. It is better to have an always on option than to have something you have to pay for and trade with not being able to use your other feats.
The other casters get to say, 'I have feat X, Y, and Z. The last two apply to every spell I cast so I only need to worry about when to apply X'. The psion has to worry about when to apply any of them, and burn focus to do so, which they then have to spend 'another' feat on in order to 'maybe' be able to regain focus so they can make that choice again during the battle or they get to spend a whole round doing nothing. Woo.
These are big costs that you simply choose to ignore or sweep under the rug. Having to choose between a +4 sometimes when the cost is paid or a +2 every single time plus not having to pay the extra cost is not a hard choice. The +2 is better so much more often that it isnt even worthwhile to make the comparison.
Thanee said:
The psion has to pick a specialization and cannot get powers out of the other schools (without spending a feat, but then that makes for more resources spent). He doesnt get a choice and whatever choice he makes will cut off other very valuable options no matter what.
The sorc will be able to choose from the whole spell list and put what he wants, as in 'not restricted'.
The sorc may choose to specialize, but he is better off not doing so (trying to spread out as many different choices as possible over his range). Specializing as a default generalist is difficult indeed and wont do him much good.
Thanee said:
Ahh.. so we should start making comparisons with wizards/sorcs and cleric/druids? Fighters?
The psion is simply another version of magic that is somewhere between the wizard and the sorc (weaknesses of one, strengths of the other). Overall balanced.
Nail said:
Strangely, psionics take less houserules to fix the minor cosmetic issues than magic takes to fix its major gapeing holes of destruction (disjunction anyone?).
Still, if it comes down to, 'psions are not in line with classes as a whole' then that means we have to compare psions with every single class across every possible build.
So far someone has done a rundown of direct damage dice comparison. Who wants to work on the next comparison? There are roughly thousands of such comparisons to do to even get started on such an undertaking.
