Anyone else annoyed by psionics?

[Timeboxer]

I know this has come up before, but: "Boy howdy, It'd be nice to see some real-game examples of psions an' Arcanists in the same group!"

This is probably not entirely helpful since people are talking about mid- to high-level play, but this summer I played a Telepath from levels 1 through 7 together with a Sorcerer -- with, admittedly, a bunch of attack powers that I chose because the GM was comfortable with fudging Will saves against my Telepath powers because he didn't want me to be controlling his evil guys, and I needed some alternatives (Energy Missile). And, in my experience, the Psion blows through her Power Points very very fast.

The thing is, while I could get out a lot of damage output with a high save DC in a short amount of time, doing so meant that I wasn't as reliable as the Sorcerer was, and so I ended up playing second-fiddle as a result. At more than one point I went through two or three encounters essentially doing nothing because I was entirely exhausted of Power Points, while the Sorcerer was putting out fireball after fireball. Schism was helpful, but losing those manifester levels for the second manifestation hurts.

The other thing I feel I should note is that every GM I've ever played under has decided that psionic items are either very very very hard to find or impossible to find. So, I spent the entire game feeling very very underequipped compared to the Sorcerer (who had various spell-enhancing items).

Given the nature of Eberron (the original poster's campaign setting of choice), this is likely to also be the case, and you may well consider this a balancing factor of some sort. Though in my opinion it would probably just annoy the psion to see the casters all decked out with their Pearls of Power and Rings of Wizardry and scrolls and staves and Beads of Karma and so on, while his sole power-enhancing item is a Headband of Intellect +2.

 

[Spatula]

Remember, the psion effectively 'cannot' use focus every round. With spending an extra feat then there is a chance of doing so

It's a good thing the psion gets bonus feats (that the sorcerer doesn't), then, isn't it?

 

[Droid101]

That's it, I'm throwing down. If a sorcerer takes the enhance spell feat, all the damage caps go up by 10, thereby making all those 3rd level 'throwaway' fireballs very-very powerful 20d6 punches to the gut. Now the sorcerer runs away with damage potential over extended periods! Grrr!

Tee, hee, okay I'm done.

 

[Plane Sailing]

That's it, I'm throwing down. If a sorcerer takes the enhance spell feat

I've not heard of that one... where is *that* from?

 

[Droid101]

I've not heard of that one... where is *that* from?

Epic Level Handbook.

 

[Thanee]

LOL Yeah, that's a pretty damn good feat for sure, but not really available pre-epic.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Doctor Bomb]

...greater psionic endowment gives him a +2 on his powers, so with an 18 INT (not impossible at 1st level) that would give him those nasty save DCs.

As to the Dragon encounters and my Psion’s stats: Ooops, yeah I meant Psi Blast, and that was at his final INT of 22, not at the 18 he had at 5th level when he got the power.
(I don’t recall when he picked up the Headband of Intellect +2 …)
Although I said I didn’t house-rule the XPH, I do have a couple house rules that come into play here: Death from Massive Damage, and Psionics and Magic.
IMC, Death from Massive damage save isn’t a straight Fort DC 15, as that puts really tough creatures (most of whom have damage reduction anyway) at too much of an advantage for my taste. Instead, its DC 10 + Damage dealt over threshold (using the different numbers for different size categories option).
And I use a “Psionics and Magic are Translucent” rule (house rule carried over from 3.0 Psi). Each can affect the other, but to a slightly lesser effect: if it’s spell vs power or item vs item, each has the others DC +2 (Conceal Thoughts vs. Scrying for example), creatures with SR have PR = SR -5, and creatures with PR have SR = PR -5.
It makes the psions a little better against “anti-magic” creatures, and lets the wizards help out the psions against the “I eat your brains” creatures.
I forgot about those and here they both came into play.

The psion in question was a shaper, and his astral construct never lasted more than three rounds at the highest level (ooh, a medium-sized target with 20-30 hp! CLAW/CLAW/BITE – NEXT!) He put his feats into other things to make up for the lack of party members – he was acting as the rogue due to his high Dex (started at 16, ended at 20) and good PR skills (Diplomacy 10 ranks, Bluff 8 ranks, etc). He couldn’t jump over a 10’ gap half the time, and couldn’t climb a tree to save his life, so it’s a good thing the ranger was an archery specialist, firing into melee as often as he did. What can I say, the party never learned to make listen checks before rounding a corner, and they always seemed to be upwind of something hungry…

Which brings us back to the Dragons. Both were Large Greens, one Juvenile (so no SR yet) and the other Young Adult (SR only 19, so IMC PR 14, not too hard to beat with a +4 Int bonus). Due to the patchy woodlands in the area, both had the same favored technique: wait in copse of trees until creatures approach, breath gas cone, and anything that survives long enough to run into the open gets picked up on a Flyby two or three rounds later if it’s small enough to carry. With standard stats they had plenty of strength to manage the weight of anything they could grapple (+17 and +22 respectively).

So the party fell into the “trap” the first time, ran out into the open to get a breath of fresh air, and try to figure out a strategy, and saw the dragon rising up. They got into the open and the ranger opened fire, putting some holes in it. The dragon (flight category POOR) continued to fly up and bank. The ranger fired and missed, and the dragon began its charge. While the ranger decided to run for cover (still near the trees), the psion decided to wait and try Psionic Blast (not yet used on anything), and readied that action. Next round, as the dragon got up to full speed in a dive, the psion loosed his power, and the dragon rolled abysmally low, not enough to beat the required 17 (10 + power level (3) + Int bonus (4)). The dragon was thus stunned and headed at about a 45 degree angle into the earth, no longer able to pull up at the last second and grab the helpless psion (and with a Strength and Con of 10 and an AC of 14, hit points around 18 I believe, yeah, he would have been chow in two bites).
SO, dragon took falling damage from 300 feet (movement rate at impact) lessened slightly by the angle (half the angle so half the height - 150 feet). I actually rolled the damage and came out with something like 67, and as a Large creature that’s a DC 17 Fort save (60 massive damage threshold at size Large) IMC. SADLY, with a Fort bonus of +12, the sorry dragon rolled a 1, and promptly passed on to the afterlife.

Since it worked once, they tried it again the next time (with the Ranger getting a couple crits with his bow after taking a level of the Order of the Bow Initiate PrC) and a slightly older but not much wiser (Will bonus +12 vice +11) dragon went up against a much better prepared psion (still would have been a tasty snack, but at least had an elven chain shirt on) who beat his SR handily. The Will save at that time was 20 (10 + power level (3) + Int bonus (6) + Psionic Endowment Feat (1)). Yeah, still bad odds, but these players don’t actually READ the monster manual, they just like the pretty pictures. OF COURSE the dragon failed its Will save, and AGAIN I ROLL A 1 ON THE FORT SAVE!! Yes, the players should have died (or at least the Ranger should have had to go on a quest or two to get the Psion resurrected), but a couple crappy rolls….
…at least they never found the lairs… /

 

[Doctor Bomb]

Sor 10 uses empowered fireballs (he's got 4 of those) and then normal fireballs (he's got 7 of those). Meanwhile Psi 10 uses empowered energy balls (he can do that 11 times, and then he's practically tapped-out). Maximum area damage capacity!

Energy Ball
Level: Kineticist 4
Saving Throw: Reflex half or Fortitude half
Power Resistance: Yes

Am I missing something here? It seems that most people on this thread are assuming that ALL psions have access to this power, and ALL sorcerers have access to fireball. Although Kineticist is a tasty discipline, there are others, and not all of them would be willing to blow a feat to gain access to one measly power. And sorcerers pick up their spells at random, so many may not even be able to cast fireball.
As for Energy Ball, there is a save for half, which means either most creatures with Rogue or Monk levels don’t get hit AT ALL, or most of your melee focused monsters (or fighters and barbarians) shrug off enough of the damage to keep hacking. And if you are using the Psionics and Magic are the Same option, most of your higher level BBEG’s force a PR/SR check to ignore it entirely.
IMO it’s roughly the same as Flame Strike from the cleric’s list: If you have it, great, you will probably use it, it's higher level than fireball. But it’s not going to be a game breaker, just a favorite spell/power. It’s not irresistible and you can't cast it forever.

 

[Valesin]

Whoa wait a minute! I haven't been really paying attention to this thread, but did someone just write that sorcerers get their spells AT RANDOM?

Wow, someone is pulling your leg or your DM is Demon Prince of Bastards.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

The point that seems to be overlooked by the anti-psion camp is that arcane direct damage spells are awful!

Yes, you can outdamage a sorcerer (or wizard) with a psion.

You can also outdamage a sorcerer or wizard with any number of melee characters. Whirlwind attacking enlarged spiked chain enthusiasts can even outdamage a Sor or Wiz in a fireball-like radius. With absolutely no limit on the number of times he can do it per day. And no energy resistance. And probably no significant DR (energy resistance seems to be higher and more common than DR, anyway). And no SR.

The thing is, a wizard, and to a lesser extent a sorcerer, can do a multitude of other things better than a melee character.

Like summoning. Throw Augment Summoning and some focus in there and those summons get nasty. Especially from a druid.

And the ungodly power of transmutation. Polymorph, its relatives, and the invincible shapechange. Not to mention the myriad completely insane RAW possibilities of polymorph any object.

Not to mention controlling time. Haste is still one of the strongest spells in the game, and time stop's abusive potential is legendary.

And defense. Go ahead, try to hit the blinking displaced mirror image of the shielded wizard in his mage armor - and get smacked by his fire shield in return.

This is the arcane spellcaster's specialty: a little bit of everything. The question for the psion is, does he either do enough other things to make his damage potential unbalancing?

In my experience, the answer is an emphatic no, in comparison to the wizard, and a maybe in comparison to the sorcerer.