Anyone else annoyed by psionics?

[Nail]

Well, for one, the Psion's damage is 541, not 594. Re-read Sorren's post.

Sorren assumed a lower INt and Chr than I did; hence the difference. I would be surprised if either PC had less than a 20 at this level.

Second, that combination is worse for the Sorcerer. Sorcerer will be using empowered Scorching rays before he goes to normal fireballs. (And if you say "But wait, I said big burst direct damages!" Yeah, well, I said "Most damage possible.") Sorcerer's damage jumps to 471. Gap isn't so big now.

That's to a single target, as you mention. I'll look at that next. For now, it's area effect damage all th' way, baby.

Thirdly, the Psion has to make a concentration check every round to regain focus. This may be an easy check, but you might roll a 1. Then he only gets a normal Energy Burst. This will knock his damage down a bit.

Possibly. But again, it's a Concentration check. Skill checks don't have "auto failures", so rolling a 1 might not fail. What's the Psi 10's concentration check liable to be? 13 ranks, for sure, then Con bonus......

At about this level, our Psion was never failing the Concentration check....still, I was sloppy, and I'll look it over.

Meanwhile: look at the difference between saves and penetrations. Ouch.

 

[Scion]

Err... rolling a 1 isn't an autofail on skill checks, and it's not that hard to have a +19 to concentration, especially for purposes of regaining focus.

Does it require a good amount of resources to get that high? especially at this level? Yep. Obviously there is a cost there then.

Still, it 'does' take a feat even to be able to attempt that. That is another cost.


As for nails post: yep, better saves and penetration. Yet again, good! that means that the power might actually be useful!

Also, I doubt that most 10th level psions will have a 22 con

 

[Droid101]

I seriously doubt the guy has a +19 Concentration at 10th level. I'd say, maybe +16, if he has a good Constitution. But nobody is going to take the feat to give +4 to their concentration checks to become psionically focused. Too narrow. Even if you did, then that's what, 3 feats that the Psion has to take to the 1 that the sorcerer has to take in this contest?

Whatever, the point is, the damage is close, and the sorcerer still has lots of stuff left for other combat/non-combat encounters for the rest of the day.

Bah. I give up. Nobody gains or loses ground in this discussion. Everybody just posts to have it refuted so that they can then refute the refutation... yeah.

 

[Thanee]

For Concentration you could get a +5 or even +10 item quite easily at that level, tho. The feat is pretty bad, yeah.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Remember, the psion effectively 'cannot' use focus every round. With spending an extra feat then there is a chance of doing so, but as a full round action (which is equivalent but worse than the sorc position).

It's pretty much the same for both, since the sorcerer needs a full round action for empowered spells, too. And the Concentration check is automatic at that levels, anyways.

What the psion does lack here is the ability to use Endowment in addition to Empower (only either or), but since the save DC is already higher, that's not really a disadvantage.

Not to mention, that Endowment is so bad, that no person in the whole universe would ever take it (not my opinion ).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Psion]

Now let's say these same S.O.B.s find themselves faced with hordes of devils. ...What's that? Devils are immune to fire damage? No problem: the psion can freely chose the energy type......whereas the sorcerer had better hope he has the energy substitution feat.

The design team does not seem to think that switching energy types is a big bonus in a typical game. They do not assign a level cost to energy substitution. In the PLANAR HANDBOOK, in which outsiders are more common, it allows sorcerer to take an ability that makes half their damage with an attack spell force damage.

 

[Thanee]

Whatever, the point is, the damage is close, and the sorcerer still has lots of stuff left for other combat/non-combat encounters for the rest of the day.

Yeah, and this is exactly the point where the problems begin (IMHO, of course).

Damage (or more generic manifesting/spellcasting power) is close, but the psion has so many advantages over the sorcerer, which did not figure in here, that the sorcerer is lacking behind by far in total power.

Stuff like the better flexibility (which allows to tap the full power reserve pretty much every day, while the sorcerer has to have enough encounters to go through all those spell slots to gain the above advantage of having some low level slots left over), faster power level progression, more powers known (even without ridiculous stuff like Psychic Reformation - and please don't start with those 0th level spells again, I'll gladly trade those for 5th level spells, if you think they are worth the same ), no relevant components (not hindered by grapple and silence in a meaningful way), more feats and psionic feats, more skills, armor, ...

The sorcerer has not much to compare to those, really... mostly more friends, since the spells are better to buff the party, and a bit more breadth in spell selection.

But I told you that already, I think.

Sure, it's possible for a DM to set the game up in a way (heavily tailored to favor non-psions), that this doesn't show up much, but that isn't exactly the point of balance between classes, at least not to me.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Droid101]

Sure, it's possible for a DM to set the game up in a way (heavily tailored to favor non-psions), that this doesn't show up much, but that isn't exactly the point of balance between classes, at least not to me.

Bye
Thanee

What if in a campaign, I get run through 15 combats per day? After about 5 or 6 or 7, all the people who have use-limited powers become useless. Should they be changing their game so that the non-fighters feel more useful? What if that guy only runs 1 combat per day? Should they change their game so that the melee combatants feel more useful? As all the spellcasters should outshine them, if there's only 1 combat a day.

The DM should absolutely have to tailor his game to his players. How is it going to be a fun game if he doesn't?

...

Sorcerers, while keeping up in spells cast for the first few encounters, will have lots of spells left after the Psion is out. That alone is enough to balance them. If you don't think they're balanced, don't use them. I don't find them in any way unbalanced. So I get more options than you.

 

[drothgery]

I seriously doubt the guy has a +19 Concentration at 10th level. I'd say, maybe +16, if he has a good Constitution. But nobody is going to take the feat to give +4 to their concentration checks to become psionically focused. Too narrow. Even if you did, then that's what, 3 feats that the Psion has to take to the 1 that the sorcerer has to take in this contest?

13 ranks is a given (any psion who doesn't max-out concentration until they've got at least +19 is brain dead). +2 or +3 from Con is likely (Con is probably a psion's second-highest ability score). It's not hard to scrape up another +3 or +4 from feats or items (the most practical +3 is probably from a single-minded Psicrystal).

 

[Droid101]

13 ranks is a given (any psion who doesn't max-out concentration until they've got at least +19 is brain dead). +2 or +3 from Con is likely (Con is probably a psion's second-highest ability score). It's not hard to scrape up another +3 or +4 from feats or items (the most practical +3 is probably from a single-minded Psicrystal).

Player in a game I'm in has the Sage psicrystal. So it's not a given that they'll take that other one.

And for the record, Energy ball is a 4th level power.