Thanee said:
That's what Scion also said a few times. But (except for some spells in the 5th-6th level range) I'm not so sure about that.
I have seen it happen in play. However, a pretty easy comparison comes to mind.
As levels increase hd increase. Generally hd of opponents goes up faster than caster level. Also, con increase happens as well.
So, between resistances (very common), immunities (not quite as common but still prevalent), saves increasing, hd increaseing, and con increasing direct damage spells tend to be mostly ineffective except against pc classes with low hd and con who happened to not invest in any sort of way to defend themselves from elemental attacks (in other words, they didnt like being alive anyway, so they dont really matter).
The ability to shift elemental types is necissary to even be able to use the powers at higher levels. This is part of the tradeoffs of the system though.
However, all the energy change does is actually make it viable later on. Nothing wrong with that, especially when they are effectively useless now.
Thanee said:
Yep, unless you count damage done to a single target with no energy resistances over the course of a whole day worth of spells. There the sorcerer will be ahead as Sorren explained, but his premise, that damage dealt to a single target is the only common ground between the classes is rather faulty (should be pretty obvious that you can easily compare them in other ways, too).
People have been trying, but you seem to dislike it.
The amount of damage the psion winds up dealing tends to be more than the sorc if the psion wants to (ie is a kineticist with the proper powers or spends a feat). Remember, the psion is essentially a specialist, so I would hope that the specialist can outperform the generalist when in the specialists domain. Anything else and something would be seriously wrong (like with a necromancer vs generic cleric, something is wrong there).
Still, the sorc isnt incredibly behind in damage even then. If he needs to he can wind up doing almost twice the damage of the psion. That is not inconsiderate, in addition he can do almost as much damage plus have literally tons of other options. Or with a psion who isnt a kineticist and doesnt want to spend a feat then they will tend to be much less efficient.
In addition, even if the individual spells that the sorc has left arent incredible for damage he still has them. Vs the psion who is down for the count for the day as a glorified commoner.
Thanee said:
So, while the sorcerer at least has high level spells
This is where the comparison with mystic theurge breaks down. The Sorc 'does' have access to those higher level spells. The sorc does keep up decently with damage dealing, then, after that, the sorc keeps going.
With the 10th level sorc comparison earlier (useing empowered fireballs and fireballs) the sorc still had his full compliment of 4th level spells for the day. 4th level spells, when the characters highest possible is only 5th anyway, are pretty good. Certainly not a huge hit in power. There are a lot of very good general spells in the fourth level category, although there does tend to be a lack of really big blastem spells. A good one that comes to mind is enervation, while it is hard to compare in direct damage dice it can be a huge boon when used properly. (but this all varies depending on which particular combination of spells are used, so it can change from total to total)
Thanee said:
Here's the picture again, which does figure in spell/power level, not only caster/manifester level (as Sorren's comparison or any comparison that purely looks for single target damage does).
I am still very unimpressed by the picture. We all know that the psion can deal more damage if he spends resources properly. But then he is burned out for the day, and didnt cause a huge amount more damage anyway (within a couple of rounds the sorc catches up in fact, we dont even have to go all day, just hit round 14 or 15, not too hard even with 3 combats in a day, 5 rounds each, not unlikely).
So, the picture you are showing says that the psion can do more if he burns out and spends the resources. Yey. I would certainly hope that would be the case. In addition to the difference between a specialist and generalist.
Thanee said:
Psychic Reformation - gives the psion (with a low XP expenditure) potential access to the WHOLE XPH worth of psionic powers in a similar time (10-15 minutes) (plus swapping around feats and skills as needed, even the 50 XP for the last level can achieve a lot of stuff). And 50 XP - even if you do that once per evening - won't affect you much.
This again? So, lets see. The psion has to spend one of their few slots on it first of all, and it is not generally useful (cutting into other areas). In return one is able to spend time and exp in order to change out a couple of powers to switch to something else and then need to switch back again. This can add up very rapidly, very fast.
Say you only want to go back one level, this is the cheapest cost. So you trade in your two powers (of your highest level generally) for two of likely some lesser level in order to bypass whatever it is. Now you will need to change back (after all, missing your highest level powers will likely be a bad thing). That means 100xp to bypass some situation, minimum.
Limited wish for wizards costs 300exp to use (which I personally feel is too high, but whatever, it is raw) and they are able to do essentially the same thing (fix one problem) but they are not limited to their own spell list, they could get whatever (even useing psion powers of 5th level and below, as part of the 'power level in line with the above effects').
Sounds pretty comparable. The psion can get around things for a lesser cost, but the wizard can do it 'much' faster and without having to worry during that transition period (manifestation time, time while missing the higher level powers and having the replacements instead, then another manifestation time). Of course since the wizard also has a much wider variety of options that is certainly a big benefit for him.
Thanee said:
Not to mention, that compared to the spontaneous casting sorcerer, who is (if you count the whole day worth of slots) only slightly ahead in spellcasting power as we have seen in various examples by now, the psion has many more effective* spells known, which is the single most restrictive disadvantage of the sorcerer!
So, the guy who nearly keeps up in damage in these examples, and still go all day long for the rest of the day is 'only slightly ahead'? Obviously we have very different definitions of 'slightly'. I would think that the guy that could potentially do double the damage, or do almost as much as the psion and still do everything else needed in the day (open that door, cast some defensive spells, charm the blacksmith, whatever) would be more than slightly ahead.
Thanee said:
Astral Construct includes 9 spells, tho you won't learn all 9, but it's at least worth 3 or 4 of them
Still, since the summon monsters tend to be worth 3 - 4x as much as astral construct (when they get higher) then I guess it works out to be pretty even.
Thanee said:
the Energy powers easily live up to that number
Depends on how you count. But in any event, it is fixing a problem, not creating a new one. The problem is with the energy spells (although a single feat tends to fix that for the arcanists). Still, psions are better at direct damage, fine, everyone likes to have a nitch.
Thanee said:
Of course, the augmented version is still much worse than the greater dispel. So sure, one can pick up one power that will augment (it winds up costing more pp equivalent anyway than greater also) but it is still worse than the spells in some ways. Tradeoffs.
Thanee said:
Yep, because the sorcerer needs those feats to get even
Not really, for reasons that should be obvious as they have been pointed out to you before.
Heighten is not gotten for free, the psion can augment which for some powers might incease the dc. Very much not the same thing, not even close. Besides which, heighten is a pretty horrible feat, it just doesnt do anything. So, comparing a limited case to a feat that is worthless and saying, 'well, this is obviously a good thing for the psion'.
Not really, the psion has to pay for it, and the cost is pretty high.
Lack of bonus feats for the sorc is the sorcs problem. That is why I prefer to compare with wizards. But then in some ways the psion is better than wizards, and in some ways better than sorcs. But then in some ways the psion is worse than wizards and worse than sorcs.
None of that changes the fact that in order to even 'attempt' what you described above the psion needs to spend a good amount of resources, and even then it isnt likely to work until mid-high levels anyway.
The psion cannot use both empower and spell penetration at the same time (or endowment, or whatever) which is a huge hit. Unless of course they are willing to spend 2 more feats and expend both foci at the same time, that is pretty rough as well.
Energy substitution is pretty nice. If the sorc picks up sonic, still a valid choice last I heard, then the sorc can do something the psion cannot - deal full damage with a sonic based attack. So, if they both try to do that then the sorc is way ahead on damage AND gets to do all kinds of other things that day.
As for still and silent the psion still has other displays.
Once again though, is this a problem with the psion or with the arcane casters? I know which is my choice, since I have seen how weak both of those two feats are (unfortunately it is a trend, most metamagics are power sinks instead of boosters, generally speaking one is better off 'not' useing them rather than doing so, very sad)
Thanee said:
In some situations the better stacking of feats is a boon
In some? such as when one might want to empower something 'and' have it be able to penetrate SR better? hmm.. Looks like the sorc is much better off here, especialy if you are against something that you dont know has SR. The sorc merely fires off and it adds up, the psion has to guess, and may very well guess wrong (which hurts).
Also, while being able to double up metamagics is not always useful (since they disallowed double empowering, double extend, whatever) however, sometimes it is. Having the option is good, and it is another option.
Essentially, the psion is a specialist by default, he has no other choice. The sorc is a generalist by default.
I would expect that anywhere the psion tries to do better than the sorc he would, and should, be able to do so (this is not always the case, but that is a topic for another time).
So, when trying to do so directly the psion can outdamage the sorc. Good, direct damage spells suck anyway.
When trying to be a summoner it is possible to outdue summon monsters.. well, sometimes.. not very often, but in specific cases sure, sometimes (constructor is the only real way to even come close, but comparing to prc's vs just regular stuff the prc had better win)
I see it as coming down to specialist that is made well (very well balanced) vs a generalist who has some problems (I have never played the sorc, it is just completely uninteresting, nor have I known anyone to play a sorc for more than a single level). Some people like them, sure, however I have seen the wizard in play at high levels and direct damage spells are worthless (as in, most of the time it does about the same as simply standing there doing nothing, which is sad) and so one is relegated to buffing (others, not usually ones self because it takes too many buff spells to make the wizard into a good combat machine) and save or dies (because the target might fail its save after one beats its SR). Not very exciting.
So, we now have a guy who can use damage at higher levels instead of being relegated to the above. Good.
Also, they have a lot of flexibility, but going at full power makes them burn out much faster than anyone else. Cool, they have a lot of options but pushing too hard and they are in major trouble.
Being a specialist by nature means that they should be better at certain things. They are giving up something to gain something else.
From just a general, overall impression, it definately looks to me like psionics are the most balanced form of magic to date. It has power where it needs it (not always, there are still issues with things like durations being too short), it has versitility, and it has a lot of flavor.
I have seen psionics up through the low to mid levels (more or less) and in game they were able to have a lot of options but had to be very careful or they would run out. Running out during the day wasnt the beginning of the problem though, if one didnt have enough over the night then if something happened then they were hosed, welcome to glorified commoner time again.
(you do know that you dont add in your spellcasting stat bonus to your SR/PR checks right?)
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