Anyone else annoyed by psionics?

[Scion]

I didnt say it was game breaking, I said it was something that the psionic dispel does not get.

So greater dispel works as a normal dispel, has a higher cap, and also acts as a remove curse spell (two spells in one!). So with this single spell one gets to cast two spells at the same time (one third, but better, and one fourth). Not too shabby.

 

[Thanee]

You obviously need to check greater dispel, you have missed something important.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Scion]

If you feel that adding in a 4th level spell is 'unimportant' then I am afraid your views on balance are skewed to the point of being useless for this discussion.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Fiendish ape
Large Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 4d8+11 (29 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), climb 30 ft.
Armor Class: 14 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +3 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+12
Attack: Claws +7 melee (1d6+5)
Full Attack: 2 claws +7 melee (1d6+5) and bite +2 melee (1d6+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Smite good
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, dark vision, scent, DR 5/magic, Fire and cold resist 5, SR 9
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +2
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 7
Skills: Climb +14, Listen +6, Spot +6
Feats: Alertness, Toughness
Combat
Skills: Apes have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened.
Smite Good (Su): Once per day the creature can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD total (maximum of +20) against a good foe.
Special Qualities: A fiendish creature retains all the special qualities of the base creature and also gains the following.
—Darkvision out to 60 feet.
If a fiendish creature gains damage reduction, its natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Celestial bison
Large Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 5d8+15 (37 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (–1 size, +4 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+13
Attack: Gore +8 melee (1d8+9)
Full Attack: Gore +8 melee (1d8+9)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Stampede, smite evil
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, darkvision, scent, DR 5/magic, acid/cold/electricity resistance 5, SR 10
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +4, Will +1
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 3, Wis 11, Cha 4
Skills: Listen +7, Spot +5
Feats: Alertness, Endurance
Combat
Stampede (Ex): A frightened herd of bison flees as a group in a random direction (but always away from the perceived source of danger). They literally run over anything of Large size or smaller that gets in their way, dealing 1d12 points of damage for each five bison in the herd (Reflex DC 18 half ). The save DC is Strength-based.
Smite Evil (Su): Once per day a celestial creature can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD (maximum of +20) against an evil foe.

Astral construct 3
Medium Construct
Hit Dice: 3d10+20 (36 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (+2 Dex, +8 natural), touch 12, flatfooted 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+7
Attack: Slam +7 melee (1d6+7)
Full Attack: Slam +7 melee (1d6+7)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: One ability from Menu A, construct traits, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +3, Will +1
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 15, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 10


The astral construct has a better ac, but that is pretty much it. In just about every other way it is inferior, but it is more custamizeable. Even then though the summon monster could be used for a host of different creatures with other various abilities, these guys are just for comparing beat sticks (there are actually several other beat sticks that are good in other situations, such as the fiendish dire weasel with its massive con damage attack).

So, the summon monster does more damage, has a great variety of options, comes with a host of abilities for each (celestial and fiendish both add on quite a few things that are each menu choices, but since the constructs tend to only get 1 choice they will likely not have whatever), and are the all around better solution (as you can also opt to get multiple lower level ones when needed).

For the above guys I think that the reach issues pretty much win, let alone doing more damage and the DR (which, at lower levels, not everyone is likely to have. Also, the summoned guys break through DR magic whereas the constructs do not).

It is still a great power, but it tends to be beaten out by individual summon monsters when compared. Which is fine, lesser cost for lesser benefit but useable over a larger period (augmentation).

OK, let's look at how these stack up simply in terms of damage. In order to do so, we need a target or two (let's arbitrarily pick a troll (AC 19, 63hp, +9x2 (1d6+6)/+4 (1d6+3) + rend) and a 5th level fighter (AC 23 (+1 fullplate, +1 heavy shield, 12 dex), Atk +10 (1d10+6 bastard sword) (17 str, weapon focus, +1 weapon) that covers PCvsMonster and NPC vs PC).

In order to do this, we need to pick an ability. Since this is a damage comparison, let's go for Improved Slam Attack which brings his damage up to 1d8+7. (Trip would probably far better but it will make the comparison too complex).

Astral Construct vs Troll:
Defense: AC 20, 36hp. The troll hits on an 11 with its claw attacks. It has a 25% chance to be missed by both, a 50% chance to be hit by one, and a 25% chance to be rended. If rended, it takes 4d6+21 points of damage--average 35hp. Then, there is a 25% chance for it to be hit with the bite which will deal an average of 6 hp.
So, it will sometimes go down in one round. If it isn't rended, however, it will usually last for 3 rounds. (About a 55% chance of surviving until the troll's third full attack.
Offense: Against AC 16, it will hit 60% of the time and deal 11.5 points of damage per hit. Including crits, that's an average of 7.245 damage/round.

Astral Construct vs. Fighter:
Defense: The fighter hits it on a roll of 10 and deals an average of 11.5 damage per hit. The fighter will take an average of 6 rounds to kill it.
Offense: It will hit the fighter 25% of the time. Including crits it averages about 3.02 damage/round

Fiendish Ape vs. troll
Defense: With an AC of 14, the troll will hit with 80% of its claw attacks. Consequently, it will rend 64% of the time. DR reduces the trolls average damage per claw to 4.5 but the rend still inflicts 16 points of damage. With 29 hit points, it's got about a 13% chance of surviving until round 3. It's chances of surviving until round 2, however, seem pretty comparable to the construct's. (The construct will survive based upon not being rended 75% of the time and not quite being killed by rend damage; the ape will survive based on usually being rended but generally being able to survive the rend damage).
Offense: It will hit 60% of the time with its claws and 35% of the time with its bite. It does an average of 12.73 damage per round--not including smites. Smiting gets it nothing against a troll but against a good creature similar to a troll would get it 2.52 more damage/round including crits.

Ape vs. Fighter:
Defense: The fighter hits the ape 85% of the time for an average of 11.5 damage per hit. That's 10.75 damage per round. The fighter will pretty reliably kill the ape in three rounds.
Offense: It averages 4.75 damage per round against the fighter.

Bison vs. Troll:
Defense: With AC 13, the troll will hit 85% of the time and rend 72% of the time. With 37 hp, however, the bison will be able to survive even a max damage rend following two max damage claw attacks (total 34 points of damage). It is almost certain to make it to round 2 but, since it stands about a 55% chance of being rended twice running, it will has about the same chance of living to round 3 as the astral construct.
Offense: It has a 65% chance of hitting the troll and deals an average of 13.5 points of damage. 9.21 points of damage per round. By smiting, it adds an average of 3.4 damage to an appropriate target in the first round.

Bison vs. fighter:
Defense: The fighter hits 90% of the time and deals 11.5 damage per hit for an average of 11.38 damage per round including crits. The fighter will need an average of 4 rounds to kill the bison--less if he has power attack, etc.
Offense: The bison hits 30% of the time and deals an average of 4.25 damage/round to the fighter.

So, the Improved Slam Astral Construct III looks to be a pretty solid contender with the best that Summon Monster III has to offer. It is a lot more survivable than the fiendish ape though not quite as survivable as the celestial bison in player vs. monster. As a tool for NPCs to use against players, it is dramatically more surviable than either the bison or the ape. Offensively, it is comparable to the bison but not the ape which does almost twice as much damage as it does PvM. As a tool for NPCs against the listed PC, none of them are particularly effective but the Astral Construct is in the ballpark of the bison and not the ape.

When one considers the abilities on the astral construct list, it appears that astral construct will generally produce better flying combatants than Summon Monster (the dire bat and hippogriff, for instance are not as good as a flying Astral Construct III (though the hippogriff has better offense against low-AC foes)) but inferior aquatic combatants (aquatic monsters tend to be better than other monsters summonable by the spell).

High level summon monster spells have the option to summon creatures for magical abilities (Hound Archon with Aid and Magic Circle Aura, the Bralani Eladrin with Cure Serious Wounds and Lightning Bolt, the Djinni, Bone Devil, Lillend, Couatl, Leonal, Barbed Devil, Night Hag, and Avoral. Summon Nature's Ally has the Unicorn, Satyr, Pixie, Grig, Noble Salamander, and Celestial Charger Unicorn. That, however, is far from the primary use of summon monster spells.

As for odd non-magical abilities, I think Astral Construct actually has the upper hand. it's certainly possible to summon a celestial monkey to set off traps etc, but communication with summoned creatures is limited by language and their available forms are somewhat limited. For instance, you couldn't summon a celestial monkey to fly over the wall and unbar the door. It could unbar the door but it can't fly. Astral constructs are telepathically commanded eliminating the language barrier and can always be humaniform, eliminating a lot of form restrictions on non-magical creative uses for the spell.

You also overlook the benefit of the construct type which has at least as many benefits as the non-DR aspects of the fiendish or celestial template. The other, incredibly significant aspect of astral constructs that you overlook is that astral constructs are not hedged out by magic circle vs. evil, etc. Summoned monsters can be countered in that manner. That's not a game-winning comparison in the psion/wizard comparison if only because once a wizard realizes that there is such an effect, he can generally summon creatures immune to it. It does, however significantly limit wizards' choices in a lot of situations.

On the whole, I think Astral Constructs are inferior to summon monster at the high end but they're a lot closer than you seem to think--and they're probably better for NPCs to use against PCs. (And that said, they're better beatsticks at the higher levels--an Extreme Deflection, Extra Attack, Power Attack Astral Construct IX will kick a summoned Elder Earth Elemental's but ten ways till sunday and substituting Heavy Deflection, Muscle, and Trip for Extreme Deflection and Power Attack will make it far more deadly to PCs as well).

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Good grief! This is REMOVE CURSE we're talking about here. It comes up in play roughly half as often as the paladin's immunity to disease which comes up once a year if the paladin is lucky. I've played wizards since 3e came out and I've still yet to see a situation where the Remove Curse ability of a greater dispelling was useful. Maybe it's useful in games I don't play (that's why I erred on the side of caution in saying half as often as immunity to disease). However, I think that the utility is low enough to be negligible for the purpose of this discussion--just like the ability of the astral construct to be made into an exact likeness of a specific individual.

If you feel that adding in a 4th level spell is 'unimportant' then I am afraid your views on balance are skewed to the point of being useless for this discussion.

 

[Scion]

Good grief! This is REMOVE CURSE we're talking about here. It comes up in play roughly half as often as the paladin's immunity to disease which comes up once a year if the paladin is lucky. I've played wizards since 3e came out and I've still yet to see a situation where the Remove Curse ability of a greater dispelling was useful. Maybe it's useful in games I don't play (that's why I erred on the side of caution in saying half as often as immunity to disease). However, I think that the utility is low enough to be negligible for the purpose of this discussion--just like the ability of the astral construct to be made into an exact likeness of a specific individual.

But it is a fourth level spell that is being added in. If you dont feel that remove curse is up to 4th level status that is your own call of course, however, that does not change what it is.

Also, I have seen spells like bestow curse used a great deal. They are incredibly effective when used properly. Since a normal dispel magic does not get rid of these types, but greater does, then while you have greater you dont have to bother preparing any remove curses just in case of such things.

If your dm does not use spells like bestow curse that is fine, but I have seen them put to great use indeed

 

[Scion]

The comparison that basilisk gave above compares damage dealing astral construct 3 to two other creatures from the summon monster 3 list.

I purposefully chose 3 because it is around the time when they are somewhat equal but from this point on the summons really start to have such a wide variety of abilities that there isnt a way to compare them very usefully (summon monster 4 also has a celestial lion, and that guy is pretty rocking)

However, it does fail to take into account a few important things.

1) Reach (pretty nice ability here)
2) SR (all summon monsters have it)
3) Energy resistance (nearly very summon has it)
4) communication (all creatures of int 3 or higher understand at least one language, which is common unless specified otherwise, it is not as far as I can tell, so communicating with the animals shouldnt be much of a problem)
5) Scent (this one is 'huge'. this means that the creatures can get around invisibility to some extent and be able to perform other tasks as needed)
6) Skills (listen and spot are on most of the creatures somewhere, plus for the ones here the ape has a massive climb, which can be useful. Lots of options is what the summon monster list seems to try to be about, it doesnt always do a good job though).
7) Saves (astral construct saves tend to be pretty poor, the 9th level version has +6 to all saves, both of the two guys here for summon monster 3 almost have that [+6/+6/+2 and +7/+4/+1]
8) Specials (such as the hell hounds fire breath, with this guy at your side you might actually be able to kill off that troll, none of the other three guys are able to do that, or the earth elemental to walk through the ground to find out which tomb is the fake, or whatever other options may come up)

Here is the list that astral constructs get to choose from:
SRD:
Buff (Ex): The astral construct gains an extra 5 hit points.
Celerity (Ex): The astral construct’s land speed is increased by 10 feet.
Cleave (Ex): The astral construct gains the Cleave feat.
Deflection (Ex): The astral construct gains a +1 deflection bonus to Armor Class.
Fly (Ex): The astral construct has physical wings and a fly speed of 20 feet (average).
Improved Bull Rush (Ex): The astral construct gains the Improved Bull Rush feat.
Improved Slam Attack (Ex): The astral construct gains the Improved Natural Attack feat.
Mobility (Ex): The astral construct gains the Mobility feat.
Power Attack (Ex): The astral construct gains the Power Attack feat.
Resistance (Ex): Choose one of the following energy types: fire, cold, acid, electricity, or sonic. The astral construct gains resistance 5 against that energy type.
Swim (Ex): The astral construct is streamlined and shark like, and gains a swim speed of 30 feet.
Trip (Ex): If the astral construct hits with a slam attack, it can attempt to trip the opponent as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking attacks of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the astral construct.


For flying the hippogriff moves at 100 whereas the construct moves at 20. The hippogriff may be ridden but the same may not be said for the construct (I would allow it with a sufficient craft(sculpture) check but with penalties to the ride check). The hippogriff again has 3 attacks, low light vision and darkvision, scent, and saves that beat the astral construct there and back again.


Construct type is pretty nice, for this case basically granting: immunity to mind effecting, Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease , death effects, and necromancy effects. Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or energy drain. Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects, or is harmless).

Of course there are spells that specifically do more against constructs, but those arent terribly important here.

The magic circles work, assuming that the proper alignment is choosen and the SR is bypassed (likely to be, but there is always a chance). Of course those usually only work less than a third of the time to begin with and the SR might kill it (so I will lump it in the same area as the spells that hurt constructs more).

Again though, I picked beatsticks to compare with because if the summons could beat them (and even in the cases given here they tend to win at least half of the time) and since the summonings have so many more 'specials' that they tend to get in abundance then the winner is pretty clear.

Effectively the astral construct is only a beat stick, although it does tend to be pretty good at it. The higher up one gets on the summoning not only are more beat sticks gained (some of which are incredible) but also the number of other options (such as spells, special abilities, whatever) opens up dramatically as well.

I like astral construct a lot, I think it works perfectly for what it is meant to do. However, in no way to I think that it is worth anywhere near 9 spells. Pretty much worth 1 seems about right.

The greater variety of options, getting multiple abilities at the same time (more than just a single menu choice, although later on the constructs do start to get a couple of things they were missing), and the spell like things that one can get tend to even the two out over the course of the levels.

(if we go to the end case, level 9, we have the elder elementals, or the gargantuan fiendish monstrous scorpian, or a few other beat sticks, anyone want to compare those? )

 

[Gwarok]

I've also never liked Psionics. They just never seemed to fit in a fantasy campaign. I mean, where in mythology or outside DND fanbooks did they come to seem like something that should be added?

My thoughts are that one day they made a mind flayer, and felt obligated to have its powers labeled as mental rather than magical. And if a monster can do it, guess we need to categorize it and make it available to players. Or something like that.

Aragorn, Gimli, Gandalf, and Nimroth the Mentalist. One of these things is not like the other ones...

 

[Scion]

Gandolf has always seemed more like a psion than a mage to me

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Now I, on the other hand, would rate Astral Construct as worth 3 or 4 spells. Very few wizards--and fewer sorcerors--will ever learn the entire Summon Monster list. Summon Monster I and II are good only for masochists. Summon Monster III-IX are pretty good though. It wouldn't be too unusual for a wizard to have Summon Monster III, IV, VII, and IX or III, VI, and VIII or some similar combination. Even a wizard created at 20th level might well find uses for Summon Monster I (trapspringing), VI (healing, spellcasting), and IX (combat).

Since I mentioned it, however, I'll run a comparison of Astral Construct IX against an Elder Elemental--straight up and MvP.

Note that, since this is evaluating their utility as spells I throw them against foes one could expect to encounter when they are available rather than foes similar to their CRs:

For the PC, I'll use something resembling my halberdier from the fighter/psywar thread: AC 45, 220 hp (or so), atk: +37/+37/+32/+27/+22 for 1d10+24. Since power attack is vital at high levels I will include some power attack numbers.

Elder Earth Elemental: HP: 228, AC: 22, Atk +27/+27 (2d10+11 19-20/x2), DR 10/-
Astral Construct IX (Extreme Deflection, Muscle, Extra Attack): HP: 144, AC 41, Atk: +30/+30/+30 (2d6+18); DR 15/magic

Elder Earth Elemental vs Astral Construct:
Defense: The Astral Construct will hit on anything but a 1 and will deal an average of ten points per hit after DR. It survives an average of 8 rounds.
Offense: The Elder Earth Elemental hits 35% of the time and deals an average of 6 points of damage per hit after DR. That's 4.2 points of damage per round. It will take 35 rounds to kill the construct.

But that's not really fair since the construct's DR is easy to bypass and the elemental's isn't. (It just so happens that the elemental can't bypass the construct's DR). If the elemental is a proxy for other tough creatures, most of them will be able to beat the construct's DR. So that's 15.4 points of damage per round. The Elemental needs 10 rounds to kill the construct. That's better but it still loses to the construct.

The above analysis doesn't figure in Earth Mastery either but that's not going to tip the balance.

Elder Earth Elemental Vs. Cornugon:
Defense: power attack 5: chain 95/70/45% for 2d6+25, bite 75% 2d8+10, tail 75% 2d6+10 plus infernal wound 44.1+6.75+5.25=56.1 damage/round
The earth elemental has a 40% chance of not succumbing to the devil's fear aura.
Offense: 65% chance of hitting: 17.16 damage per round including crits after DR is taken into consideration.

If the DM house rules that magic circle against good effects neutral creatures in the same way as magic circle vs. evil, it probably can't attack the Cornugon at all.

Astral Construct IX vs. Cornugon:
Defense:
Curiously, none of the Cornugon's attacks count as magic so it can't beat the construct's DR. However, I imagine DMs will often give the Cornugon a magic weapon So I'll run two sets of numbers. First the normal numbers then in parenthesis the numbers for a Cornugon with a +1 spiked chain.
25%/5%/5% 2d6+15 chain (30/10/5% 2d6+16 chain), 10% bite (2d8+5), 10% tail (2d6+5): 2.45 (10.35) chain + (a 3.75% chance to deal ANY damage at all) + (a 2.5% chance to deal any damage at all). Total: about 2.5 points of damage per round (10.4 points of damage per round).
It is immune to the Cornugon's Fear Aura.
Offense: 80% chance to hit for 15 points of damage per hit (after DR). 37.8 damage per round to the Cornugon.

Astral Construct IX vs. Fighter:
Defense: The fighter has a 85%/85%/60%/35%/10% chance of hitting the creature and deals an average of 29.5 points of damage per hit. The construct pretty reliably takes about 81.12 points of damage per round. It'll die in the second round.
Offense: The Construct has a 30% chance to hit and does an average of 25 points of damage. That's an average of 22.78 damage/round including crits and moderate fortification but excluding concealment.

Elder Earth Elemental vs. Fighter:
Defense: All of the fighter's attacks hit on a 1 even when he power attacks for 1. So, if he does that, he deals an average of 21.5 damage/hit after DR. That's 102.12 damage/round. The earth elemental is likely to survive 3 rounds of that.

On the other hand, if the fighter power attacks for 6, he deals an average of 31.5 damage per hit after DR. That puts him up to 143.33 damage/round and the elemental will be dead halfway through the second round. If the fighter power attacks for 12, that's an average of 43.5 per hit for 171.83 damage per round after DR. At that rate, the fighter can use cleave to get his kill rate up to nearly one per round. There's probably an optimal power attack number that cranks it a bit higher but that's the ballpark it's likely to end up at. (It's not as if most PCs or NPCs reliably pick optimal power attack numbers anyways).

Offense: The earth elemental has a 15% chance to hit and deals an average of 22 points of damage per hit. That's 6.765 damage per round including crits and moderate fortification but excluding concealment.

The elder earth elemental has the best combo of attack and defense on the summon monster IX list and it looks to me like Astral Construct IX wins hands down in both the direct matchup and PvM. Where the Elder Earth elemental stands in for a generic monster, and beats the construct's DR, the Astral Construct still has a slight advantage.

Overall, I think this confirms the previous analysis:

Against generic monsters, Astral Constructs are comparable or slightly better than summoned monsters. Against monsters, PCs or NPCs, high level Astral Constructs are dramatically better than any of the summon monster beatsticks. Astral constructs have some non-magical special teams abilities too--and I believe they give up less to get combat abilities abilities (An Astral Construct III, for instance is a better flying combatant than a dire bat or a hippogriff) but they cannot combine those abilities in the way that summoned monsters can (a fiendish dire bat for instance has Blindsense and flight and hippogriffs have much better speed and wingover) making them more powerful but less versatile. Summoned monsters have no competition for magical special teams type abilities which are almost completely beyond the abilities of Astral Constructs.