Anyone else annoyed by psionics?

[renbot]

That's the problem: I have a player who has been begging to play a psion for 4 years and with the release of Eberron I finally capitulated. I should have seen it coming: he is a great guy but a compulsive power-gamer and everything he has ever felt really strongly about has had balance issues.

Oh well, rather than rewrite the rules I will use the most powerful tool in the DM arsenal: turnabout. In my game, if the party uses (abuses?) a rule than they will start facing foes who have found the same loophole. It has worked in the past, where the rest of the party has leaned on the offender so that the DM will stop using the same tactics against them (it is funny how quickly something goes from being 'reasonable' to 'broken' when it is used against the party!)

 

[Plane Sailing]

Can you imagine allowing your aracanist to convert every single spell level he had into 3rd level spells? A first and a second, a sixth is worth two thirds, as is a fourth and two seconds. No reason to find a use for those pesky levels with few good choices (I am looking at you 4th level spells) because they can just turn every single solitary spell they get into fireball when facing that white dragon.

Interestingly Monte Cook in Arcana Unearthed made this concept one of the core elements of his arcane classes - they can weave together three spell slots of one level to cast a spell of a higher level, or unravel a higher level slot to cast 2 spells of a lower level

e.g. turn 3x2nd level slots into a sorcerous blast, and turn a 4th level slot into another two sorcerous blasts. (sorcerous blast is his 3rd level replacement for fireball that - you guessed it - allows you to choose what form of elemental damage you cause at casting time).

I only mention this because
a) Arcana Unearthed predates the XPH
b) I basically hear nothing but praise for AU and the spell weaving mechanism

So while the number of people playing AU is much less than those playing straight D&D there is a significant community who have been using this kind of setup with no real problems.

That leaves the problem as being largely one that exists when in comparison to current D&D arcane casters in your Eberron game. Personally I think the best way of handling this is to specify that the energy type should be chosen and fixed at the time that the power is learnt. There are plenty of energy powers and if someone wants to have all four capabilities 4 out of their total of 436 powers doesn't seem too much to ask of them!

Regarding Crystal shards and no saving throw... the "crystal" range of powers is analogous to the Conjuration school of arcane magic - touch attacks with no saving throw and no spell resistance. That is the role which it is designed for, although I wouldn't argue if you were to point out that it could be augmented to cause much more damage than any conjuration spells can mete out as an instantaneous effect!

Cheers

 

[renbot]

What makes Monte's system work (and brilliant, in my opinion) is that he traded down the power level of each spell in order to introduce more versatility: what with heightened and diminished versions of every spell, plus the ability to (un)weave spell slots of one level to cast another...magnifique!

The problem with using that as a comparison for psionics is that psionics are at least as powerful as the 3.5 arcane spells of the same level, and in most cases more so. The 'augmentations' of powers are the equivalent of feats that you never have to burn a feat for. All of the energy spells allow you to alter energy at will, the 'buff' spell equivalent (Bull Strengh, Cat Grace etc) is one power that gives you access to all six. And as an added bonus, you can activate them all at once in a single action! All six stats at +4 with one action: there's balance for you.

And as for comparing crystal shards with the conjurations that require a ranged touch attack, I have to wonder: are any of you even paying attention before you reply to one of these things?! The 3.5 touch attacks are ENERGY spells, and thus have hundreds of ways to protect against. Find me the core 3.5 that is a ranged touch, does damage and isn't an energy form. You can't: there aren't any.

Please have some idea as to what you are talking about before posting.

 

[Spatula]

It seems to me that the mental attacks allow saves, but none of the physical ones that have been used yet in my game.

The scorching ray analogy is a bad one. Scorching ray is ALWAYS fire. ALWAYS. How easy is fire resistance to obtain? How common is fire immunity?

It's very common. Scorching ray is also always a 2nd level spell, even when the caster is 11th level and getting 3 4d6 rays out of that one slot. The trade-off for psions is that they have to pay more to get a similiar effect from their powers. An 11th level sorcerer casts magic missile, using a 1st level slot, and does 5d4+5 damage. An 11th level psion manifests energy ray, using 1 power point, and does 1d6(+/-1) damage. Now the psion can pour more power points into it, but then it's effectively no longer a first level power.

Augmented powers are basically equivalent to higher-level powers. A first level power augmented by 16 points is, essentially, using a 9th level "slot" for that power. And yes, the psion can generally use more of his highest level "slots" than other casters, but doing so strips him of all of his power points in short order.

Part of the problem could be that you're not throwing enough challenges at the party per day, so the psion is safely able to blow all of his power, and never has to deal with being out of power points. The psion is better than the other caster classes in those circumstances. You need to confront the party with more challenges so that the psion hesitates to spend everything at once.

I do agree that the energy flexibility is a problem. Do as Plane Sailing suggests, and force him to pick one type for each individual power, or force him to pick one type, period, and only allow access to other types with a feat.

 

[Scion]

The scorching ray analogy is a bad one. Scorching ray is ALWAYS fire.

Of course, it winds up doing around 4x as much damage for the same amount of input (3pp vs 2nd level spell).

But then, the single energy type is magics biggest weakness. It essentially already makes a direct damage dealing build useless.

In other words, the psionic system helps 'fix' something that was 'bad' to begin with. Not break something that was good.

It is not about lazyness, or lack of prep time, or anything like that. It is simply making something that is normally pretty worthless into something worthwhile.

A ninth level spell allows for one magic missle.

Actually, a 4th level spell slot would be 3 magic missiles. I could easily see someone coming up with a higher level version of that spell.

Also, a single 9th level spell is 'much' stronger than any first level spell. Typically even 9 of them (circumstances differ of course, but this is generally true).

A ninth level power allows for 17 first level powers, or one first level power augmented 17 times.

Augmented a maximum of 16 times actually. But that doesnt really matter. What does matter is that a first level power with no augmentation is generally incredibly inferior to a 1st level spell cast at this level.

Crystal shard for d6 or magic missile for 5d4+5. These sort of comparisons help to show that the comparison you are trying to draw doesnt take in all of the facts.

Even then, generally an augmented low level power isnt as good as a high level power is to begin with. So even there the comparison tends to fail.

For example, the party thought it was going up against undead last night and instead went up against barbarians. The cleric, prepared for undead, was hosed. The psion, if he has even one power that is useful, can go on for 15 rds before running out of stuff to do.

So the cleric (who has a much better hd, better BAB, better saves, and more abilities) was less useful in this particular fight than the psion? Where is the bad part again?

Everyone should have their chance to shine now and then. Every character who is built to do a certain thing well should be able to do that well.

The cleric buddy in the example above (somehow I doubt that all of his spells were antiundead, but that is another side issue) would have ruled the world vs undead and likely left the psion feeling pretty miffed (the cleric has better everything and does better against the days foes, isnt that nice) but in this particular case the psion was able to do better (this could have been replaced easily by a mage who was prepared for nonundead or a general sorc).


In any event. The lack of scaling is a big hit, the need to augment in order to gain the benefits you are describing has a high cost, and generally damage dealing spells are so incredibly inferior that saying that the psion can do it better (not does, only can) if he pays for it merely means that maybe psions actually have useful damage dealing powers.

Merely trying to explain Feel free to state more examples of how you feel that it is out of whack (I'd really like to know what this pile of physical powers are that grant no save and are apparently incredible)

 

[Urbanmech]

I'm the player in question. Just going to list what I spent my power points on during the day. (4th lv Human Seer) 1 PP Inertial Armor, 6 PP 2x Object Reading, 1 PP Synthenstate, 2 PP Vigor, 4 PP Energy Ray (missed), 3 PP Concussion Blast, 4 PP Energy Ray (hit), 1 PP Energy Ray (Hit) = Leaves me with 3 PP left for the day. I also used 2 charges from a "wand" of entangling ectoplasm.

Party consisted of Warforged Fighter 4, Human Rogue 2/Wizard 2, Changling Swashbuckler 3/Ranger 1, Human Wizard 3/Ranger 1, Elf Cleric 3/Rogue 1, Human Seer 4. VS: 4 3-4th lv Shifter Barbarians and a 4-5th lv Human Cleric. A very difficult fight for us.

 

[Scion]

The problem with using that as a comparison for psionics is that psionics are at least as powerful as the 3.5 arcane spells of the same level, and in most cases more so.

Typically no, actually. The psionic versions can start off a little stronger (with appropriate element choice, or even, or lower) but with magic scaling they are generally left behind pretty quickly.

The 'augmentations' of powers are the equivalent of feats that you never have to burn a feat for.

Augmentations come at the cost of other things. It is far from free, although some people seem to think so.

All of the energy spells allow you to alter energy at will, the 'buff' spell equivalent (Bull Strengh, Cat Grace etc) is one power that gives you access to all six. And as an added bonus, you can activate them all at once in a single action! All six stats at +4 with one action: there's balance for you.

Your character is 28th level and doesnt have enhancement boosts to his stats of at least +4? wow..

Still, this 'buff' is self only vs the others which are touch. Big change. Along with most of them sucking horribly in 3.5 (no duration = bad) and you can pay a big extra amount to be able to use more than one at once. Woo.

I am sensing a major lack of 'unbalanced', at least in the too powerful direction. If you are trying to say that it is too weak then I'll go for that.

And as for comparing crystal shards with the conjurations that require a ranged touch attack, I have to wonder: are any of you even paying attention before you reply to one of these things?! The 3.5 touch attacks are ENERGY spells, and thus have hundreds of ways to protect against. Find me the core 3.5 that is a ranged touch, does damage and isn't an energy form. You can't: there aren't any.

Magic missile is pretty close.

For a single pp the psion gets a d6 damage at close range that requires a to hit roll and is able to be foiled by concealment. Of course it has no save nor SR.

Magic missile, a single first level spell, does up to 5d4+1 (can be spread to 5 close together targets, d4+1 is roughly the same as a d6) at medium range, requires no attack roll, ignores concealment, is a force effect, but it does allow for SR.

They both have their strengths and weaknesses of course. But still, mm does bypass energy resistance pretty well.

Of course, I also apply DR to crystal shard as it creates a physical object that has a damage type. But, that is a bit iffy in the rules so I shouldnt mention it.

 

[Treebore]

I have the same problems with psionics, plus a whole lot more than already mentioned. So I have been writing up my own "psionic", based primarily on the sorceror. I have also drawn on Shadowrun's Physical Adept for some ideas. I am also going with the premise that all magic is energy and all energy is magic, or simply put, energy is energy. So SR and other damage reductions will apply to psionics just as equally. Where the big difference for my psionic is going to be is most of their powers are going to effect their own person and range effects will start at range zero and go from there.

For example fireball is being converted into a fireblast type power that is a cone effect going out 40 feet from the psionicists hands. I am also going to have personal effecting powers, such as Bears Strength, get additional bonuses as the psion goes up in levels. This is to reflect what I see as their specialization, or focus. So a 9th level psionic in my game would get 4 + 3 to their strength when they activate a power.

Concentration is also going to be a very important skill for my version of the psionicist.

So the bottom line of my post is if you don't like it scrap it and come up with something you can live with as a DM and a player. If your players can't handle it and it is ruining your enjoyment as a DM scrap the campaign and go back to something you all know you can have fun with.

Psionics is the main reason I was never excited about Eberron to begin with. Plus I have seen all the elements present in Eberron and if I want such a campaign world I can definitely homebrew one with all the resources I already have.

 

[renbot]

Typically no, actually. The psionic versions can start off a little stronger (with appropriate element choice, or even, or lower) but with magic scaling they are generally left behind pretty quickly.

No, not really. Everyone keeps talking about how magic 'scales' so rapidly, but it goes up linearly if that and caps. Psionic power points to up exponentially and then some. So those power points are much less valuable at higher levels and thus their use is cheap.



Augmentations come at the cost of other things. It is far from free, although some people seem to think so.

This is the worst argument, so bad I can't believe it is being made. A wizard will have 6 feats at 10th level, which he is stuck with forever. A psion will have about 110 power points at 10th level, and can augment every single power every single time: increased damage, increased penetration, increased saving throw, increased duration, increased number of targets: all of it. You show me a wizard who wouldn't burn a few extra spell slots (or higher ones) to get the benefits of every metamagic feat out there without ever having to burn feat. Of course, you don't have to augment a power if you don't want to, just like our hypothetical wizard wouldn't have to use a metamagic feat, but when the psion would benefit from it he could regardless of his feat choices at that point.

Feat selection is one of the most important decisions 3.5 PCs make, and psions get them all for free.



And as for comparing crystal shards with the conjurations that require a ranged touch attack, I have to wonder: are any of you even paying attention before you reply to one of these things?! The 3.5 touch attacks are ENERGY spells, and thus have hundreds of ways to protect against. Find me the core 3.5 that is a ranged touch, does damage and isn't an energy form. You can't: there aren't any.


Magic missile is pretty close.

For a single pp the psion gets a d6 damage at close range that requires a to hit roll and is able to be foiled by concealment. Of course it has no save nor SR.

Magic missile, a single first level spell, does up to 5d4+1 (can be spread to 5 close together targets, d4+1 is roughly the same as a d6) at medium range, requires no attack roll, ignores concealment, is a force effect, but it does allow for SR.

They both have their strengths and weaknesses of course. But still, mm does bypass energy resistance pretty well.

Of course, I also apply DR to crystal shard as it creates a physical object that has a damage type. But, that is a bit iffy in the rules so I shouldnt mention it.

First of all, we all know magic missle is broken and always has been; it is still around for nostalgic reasons. That being said, it is a first level spell with another first level spell that 100% negates it.

DR: extremely rare, hard to come by. Energy resistance: every spellcasting class gets it, everyone has access to it at a low level.

 

[Scion]

Generally having quotes makes it much easier to both read and respond to. You may want to edit your post above appropriately.

No, not really. Everyone keeps talking about how magic 'scales' so rapidly, but it goes up linearly if that and caps. Psionic power points to up exponentially and then some. So those power points are much less valuable at higher levels and thus their use is cheap.

Lets compare a hypothetical 3rd level power and a 3rd level spell.

Lets say that the spell is like fireball. It has a pretty good range, 1 action casting time, does fire damage, and starts at 5d6 but scales up to 10d6.

The power is effectively the same except that the energy type can be chosen and it is stuck at 5d6.

So, with appropriate choice when first gaining the power/spell then the spell will deal 5d6 but the power will deal anywhere from 5d6-5 to 5d6+5.

The power definately has more versitility, which is good since without it there would be fewer uses for it (more early on, many less later on).

However, in a couple of levels the spell is dealing 7d6. This averages to 24.5, but the power is still doing (even with the +5 choice) only 22.5 on average.

From here on the spell will continue to do more damage whereas the power is still stuck.

Sure, the power can augment, but then it costs more pp. Which means that we have to compare it with a higher level spell since it then costs the same as those. Once again it will tend to start off slightly stronger in some cases (or equal, or less) but then slowly drop off until it is always less.

Pp are a very limited resource. It may look like a big number, but they go away very fast. Especially when trying to blast things or trying to do a number of smaller things (like the player above, most of the powers he had up were very short term. If he had wanted to do anything else that day he would've been out of luck, but a sorc would've had more options, and some consider the sorc weak).

This is the worst argument, so bad I can't believe it is being made. A wizard will have 6 feats at 10th level, which he is stuck with forever. A psion will have about 110 power points at 10th level, and can augment every single power every single time: increased damage, increased penetration, increased saving throw, increased duration, increased number of targets: all of it. You show me a wizard who wouldn't burn a few extra spell slots (or higher ones) to get the benefits of every metamagic feat out there without ever having to burn feat. Of course, you don't have to augment a power if you don't want to, just like our hypothetical wizard wouldn't have to use a metamagic feat, but when the psion would benefit from it he could regardless of his feat choices at that point.

I am afraid that you are completely out of context here and most of it is nonsense anyway.

The wizard will be able to have an incredibly large list of potential spells to choose from. Which means that for any given situation the wizard will be able to have some sort of answer. The psion has a very limited number of choices available, but those can be augmented to be slightly better if needed.

The psion does not get the benefit of 'every metamagic out there', only a few and those only on select powers. Then again, many metamagics are severely underpowered anyway, ESPECIALLY in the hands of the psion (metapsionics all require expending focus, this is a huge drawback. Essentially in this comparison it is a big bonus for the other casters).

The wizard spells of lower levels will tend to do as much damage as augmented powers. Sure, the dc's will be higher for the psion, they had better be for what he is giving up in return.

I have already shown how the damage can be higher for the caster so that part is done. If the psion wants to do as much (or sometimes surpassing yes) as much as the wizard then the psion will burn out very fast and be useless for the rest of the day. This is a very real possibility. The wizard has a whole arsenal, and there are good spells at every point, at least for some tasks.

The wizard has ultimate flexibility, and can still keep up when planned properly. Now who is behind?

Once again though, the elemental shifting merely makes up for something lacking in the magic system. It makes damage dealing powers actually worthwhile at higher levels. This is a 'good thing', not a negative.

First of all, we all know magic missle is broken and always has been;

Actually, it is probably right along the power lines it should be. If it is broken then prove it. Otherwise, 'we all know' simply does not fly here.

That being said, it is a first level spell with another first level spell that 100% negates it.

Ok then, globes defeat a major portion of your problem with augmentation, as they are still low level powers in essence. I guess you actually have no problem with psionics after all.

DR: extremely rare, hard to come by. Energy resistance: every spellcasting class gets it, everyone has access to it at a low level.

You do know that there is a core class that gets DR right? Actually, most of them get it in one form or another. Plus, there is adamantine armor which grants it. Many creatures/higher level challenges have DR in one form or another.

If DR is extremely rare then I dont think you are playing d&d. There are quite a few low CR creatures that have DR, and as one increases in level nearly everyone and his brother can have some sort of DR.