Anyone else annoyed by psionics?

[beeber]

mental powers--in a fantasy setting? *scratches head* i just don't get including them. i could see monks, ki, inner strength/spirit, sure. (actually don't see them much IMC, but they're not banned or anything).

 

[Piratecat]

Let's just settle a little, shall we? One can conduct a reasoned debate without snarling at the other participants.

To this I will add that while being rude is never appropriate, being rude to a moderator is in exceptionally poor taste. Renbot, please refrain from insulting people who disagree with you. EN World is a great place to discuss topics; there are better places, however, for impassioned rants.

 

[Spatula]

Kelleris, like Scion says, it's a problem with all casters. It is somewhat worse with psions, which is an artifact of using a spell/power point system vs spell slots. The downside is that the psion burns out much faster than the other spellcasters. D&D is balanced under the assumption that there are roughly 4 encounters per day.

Urbanmech's character certainly doesn't look min-maxed to me. If it was it'd be a kineticist and have energy missile, which would probably have made renbot's head explode (as it nearly made mine when I first saw it in action).

 

[Thanee]

Which means that he probably does have issues with other limited resource guys

I don't see why he should have to change his DMing style to de-cheese the psion, especially if he's not had this problem with other spellcasting classes in the past.

The problem he talks about only appears with the psion, quite obviously.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Interestingly Monte Cook in Arcana Unearthed made this concept one of the core elements of his arcane classes - they can weave together three spell slots of one level to cast a spell of a higher level, or unravel a higher level slot to cast 2 spells of a lower level

e.g. turn 3x2nd level slots into a sorcerous blast, and turn a 4th level slot into another two sorcerous blasts. (sorcerous blast is his 3rd level replacement for fireball that - you guessed it - allows you to choose what form of elemental damage you cause at casting time).

I only mention this because
a) Arcana Unearthed predates the XPH
b) I basically hear nothing but praise for AU and the spell weaving mechanism

Yeah, I had something similar in a variant sorcerer class once, to "mimic" the psion's flexibility.

Anyways, what I would question here is, that the XPH is not an AU supplement, but a D&D supplement. Using AU as a base is not the best comparison therefore, since there are some fundamental differences between the two.

If the author bases his rules on those, that's just plain wrong (as good as they might be), unless the whole system is changed accordingly!

If they would upgrade all spellcasters (and then all other classes, since they would then be left behind) to the level of the XPH, that would be fine (altho, I prefer the toned down version better), but they didn't.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Augmented powers are basically equivalent to higher-level powers. A first level power augmented by 16 points is, essentially, using a 9th level "slot" for that power.

While this is somewhat true it's also not the whole picture.

The psion can use the same amount of PP for a higher level effect (and would be stupid if he did not). And not to mention all the other benefits they enjoy, which are not covered with the augmentation cost alone. It also doesn't mention that about half of the psions powers work in exactly the same way as spells without any augmentation, and the psion can manifest tons of those in a day, not just a couple.

The amount of PP psions get increases quite fast and that alleviates a lot of their "problems" with limited PP to the point where this "problem" is non-existant at higher levels. The advantages remain...

And yes, the psion can generally use more of his highest level "slots" than other casters, but doing so strips him of all of his power points in short order.

Yep, tho not short enough, I think. And the advantage is incredibly high, because those are the powers which count in a day, not the plethora of magic missiles.

Part of the problem could be that you're not throwing enough challenges at the party per day, so the psion is safely able to blow all of his power, and never has to deal with being out of power points.

Yep, but once a psion can defeat like half a dozen encounters in a day all by himself, then this hardly happens anymore.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Here's the picture I had made for the last thread () again. It shows a 10th level sorcerer and a 10th level psion and what they can do with their spells/powers in a day. The psion augments every single power to the max!

The vertical axis is spell/power level times caster/manifester level (including the spell caps) to show how effective overall one such spell/power is.

The total effect is pretty similar in one day (the picture is certainly not 100% accurate to show this, but should be close enough to demonstrate the similarity), and that is only the case if the sorcerer is able to use all spells slots (at which point the sorcerer probably has a slight advantage on that particular day), which simply will not be the case every day. And everytime the sorcerer does not, the psions advantage improves (which is a lot more often in an average campaign, which is not completely tailored towards the need to balance psions, which should not be such a game-altering requirement to the DM, no class should work that way, that it can only be balanced, if the DM dramatically favors the other classes with the campaign style).

And that's just the spellcasting versus manifesting, which does not include the much higher number of high level powers the psion has available, the better flexibility, which is likewise not included here, the effective powers without augmentation, the lack of components, and so on. The psions advantages put that class way ahead here as there are almost no disadvantages to balance them (only really noteworthy are the smaller power base, that is there are more arcane spells available to pick from, and the weaker party buffs).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Scharlata]

[...] Psionics: a bad idea that just keep getting worse. [???]

Hi!

I liked psionics since their dawning in 1st edition, BUT psionics EVER were way too powerful. I allowed them in my 1st edition campaigns and liked them; I allowed them in my 2nd edition campaigns and were afraid they would outdo any wizard (especially the divination-like powers were too much for any mystery-based adventure, spoiling the suspense); the 3rd edition psionics are frightening.

With the XPH, I almost changed my mind from liking them to loathing them. Looking at the might of a psionicist (or whatever they are called now), every power is much more powerful and multifunctional than any spell of a comparable level. And with the possibility of "overcharging" the individual powers I thought *bang*, that's it. Just as an example: the arcane constructs have much more hit points and abilities than a correponding monster summoned; Armor Class is much higher etc. The possibility to gain hit points per psionic feat is absurd! Why not allowing every fighter who takes a "fighter" feat to gain 5 hit points? Everybody's heart would ache just considering that possibility.

Psionics are only for power mongers.

Kind regards

 

[Thanee]

every power is much more powerful and multifunctional than any spell of a comparable level.

Not every power, but there are quite a few. There are also some which are weaker, of course.

The possibility to gain hit points per psionic feat is absurd!

There is also a feat that does this for arcanists, tho it is a lot weaker (I think it gives only +1 per metamagic feat or something like that), arguably too weak. This psionic feat seems to be fine.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Plane Sailing]

Anyways, what I would question here is, that the XPH is not an AU supplement, but a D&D supplement. Using AU as a base is not the best comparison therefore, since there are some fundamental differences between the two.

If the author bases his rules on those, that's just plain wrong (as good as they might be), unless the whole system is changed accordingly!

You finished quoting me too early! That is why my next line said

"That leaves the problem as being largely one that exists when in comparison to current D&D arcane casters in your Eberron game."

I wasn't making the argument that AU does it so it is OK, just bringing up the fact that there is an arcane system which does this, and since not everyone knows about it, it might be interesting to recap here, especially since Renbot had said "Can you imagine allowing your aracanist to convert every single spell level he had into 3rd level spells?"

Cheers