D&D 5E Anyone else feel like the distinction between conjuration and evocation is really muddy?

[Falling Icicle]

Summon a bit of acid from someplace else and splash it vs creating acid whole cloth?

Conjuration isn't just about summoning or transporting things. It also includes ex nihilo creation. As the PHB states on p. 203 about the schools of magic "some conjurations create objects or effects out of nothing."

 

[Staffan]

Conjuration isn't just about summoning or transporting things. It also includes ex nihilo creation. As the PHB states on p. 203 about the schools of magic "some conjurations create objects or effects out of nothing."

3e had a bunch of subschools in many of the schools that addressed that kind of thing. Conjuration, for example, had Calling, Creation, Healing, Summoning, and Teleportation..

 

[PnPgamer]

Spell schools were weird in 1e, but the justification for spells got really bizarre in 2e, when suddenly spell schools mattered. 1e had spells that belonged to multiple schools; 2e didn't do that. The line between evocation and conjuration became really blurry (to refer back to OP: flaming sphere is a conjuration, while fireball is an evocation? From what realm are you bringing beach balls of fire from?), but there were other intrusions (as a hypothetical example, conjuring a pair of glasses that would allow you to detect secret doors, and thus getting around a restriction on divination spells.)

Uhh 2nd edition did do that. You do mean adnd 2nd?

 

[Nellisir]

Uhh 2nd edition did do that. You do mean adnd 2nd?

Huh, you're right. There are more dual-school spells in 2e than I remembered. Maybe I'm thinking of the 2e->3e update. :/

Either way, 2e, and particularly later 2e, was when the school confusion got really egregious. IMO.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Huh, you're right. There are more dual-school spells in 2e than I remembered.

There was in fact at least once spell (Cantrip) which belonged to ALL schools in 2e.

 

[Nellisir]

There was in fact at least once spell (Cantrip) which belonged to ALL schools in 2e.

Well, cantrip was an odd case. The closest comparison would be wish, which probably should have been all schools as well, except for the abuses possible thereby.

 

[SirAntoine]

The difference, as I understand it, was supposed to be something along the lines of "Conjuration creates or transports matter, evocation creates or transports energy." But there seem to be tons of evocations that sound like they'd be conjurations, and vice versa. Like, wall of fire is an evocation and wall of thorns is a conjuration, which both make sense. But wall of stone is an evocation. Are rocks just considered a kind of energy because they're tied to an element? But then there's spells like flaming sphere and produce flame, which are conjurations even though they're generating energy. And sometimes (but not always) acid is treated like a kind of energy for some reason? I mean, I guess it has chemical energy, but it still seems weird to put a corrosive liquid in the same category as fire and lightning.

Look, I'm just very concerned that this collection of made-up powers might not be getting the proper cataloging and scrutiny that a true field of science would recieve. It's really important, I swear!

(Oh, and necromancers: your "ancient art" isn't even a real school of magic! It's just an arbitrary collection of spells from the schools of evocation, conjuration, transmutation, and divination that sound spooky! Yeah, I went there. You know it's true!)

The differences should be clearly defined, not least because those were opposing schools in the past. However, they aren't laws. Someone could research a spell that conjured an energy, and another which evoked matter. It's not so much a question of what is produced, but how it is produced.

 

[Fralex]

The differences should be clearly defined, not least because those were opposing schools in the past. However, they aren't laws. Someone could research a spell that conjured an energy, and another which evoked matter. It's not so much a question of what is produced, but how it is produced.

Yeah, I think the only time this even comes close to actually bugging me is when it feels like the schools of magic weren't so much invented by mages to classify spells as they were discovered to already inherently belong in certain categories. Like how some spells identify the school of magic by the color of its aura, as if it were "built in" to the magic. But, I mean, I can just interpret it as that being the identifying spell's doing, like it's been programmed to make certain spells appear in certain colors. Not hard to hand-wave, and I like thinking up explanations for the way magic works anyhow.

 

[Jeff Albertson]

Well, cantrip was an odd case. The closest comparison would be wish, which probably should have been all schools as well, except for the abuses possible thereby.

I don't think so, wish (can't seem to have an italicise choice here), transcends all (for better or ill).

 

[seebs]

I think the rationale for fireball vs. flaming sphere was that fireball is instantaneous energy and flaming sphere is creating an item which sits around being-on-fire. But yeah, the various wall spells probably ought to have been conjuration too under that theory. Well, I sort of get wall of fire as evocation (just energy, no matter).

It works better when evocation is energy and conjuration is matter. Somewhat.