Power Source Spell Lists

[TwoSix]

By the way, please "quibble".

Divine might be a little broad for me. I wouldn't mind segregating out the farsensing/info gathering spells and the space/time being spells into their own category.

Likewise, I might break up Animal into beast and nature spirit spells and body affecting spells. Venom/corruption could also be its own category.

Obviously, perfect parity is impossible, but Plant and Illusion feel like the right "size" for a targeted spell list.

 

[Yaarel]

Divine might be a little broad for me. I wouldn't mind segregating out the farsensing/info gathering spells and the space/time being spells into their own category.

There are two reasons for why space-time includes both divination and teleportation.

One is conceptual. When a person teleports to somewhere else in space (or time), the person is making some kind of link to that location, thus defacto using divination in the sense of remote presence.

Two is utilitarian. Divination spells are too passive, unexciting, and not really good spells because they depend almost entirely on DM whim. If the DM needs the party to know something, the party will learn it by whatever means. If a DM needs the part to not know something, even divination will fail to learn it. If the divination spell learns anything, it either doesnt matter in the first place, or the DM is feeling generous.

Oppositely, the teleportation spells tend to be a one-trick pony.

Nevertheless, together, the space-time thematic concept along with the active and passive utility, plus a satisfying repertoire of specific spells, creates a solid theme.

Likewise, I might break up Animal into beast and nature spirit spells and body affecting spells. Venom/corruption could also be its own category.

Acid can go anywhere: Fire, Water, Earth, Plant, Animal. Even Force in the sense of disintegration.

Similarly, Poison, but animal venom works flavorfully enough.

Separating Animal between animal body versus animal spirit, invites "summoning" in the sense of conjuring a virtual body as a separate theme, which could include other planars as well.

Obviously, perfect parity is impossible, but Plant and Illusion feel like the right "size" for a targeted spell list.

Yeah, each theme should have appealing spells to choose from at each level. For example, Plant simply stops at slot 6. There are no Plant spells at 7, 8, or 9. Each theme should ideally have at least three excellent spells at each slot. But the solution is to add more spells, or perhaps tweak one of the existing spells.

 

[Yaarel]

@TwoSix

Actually, I think I will relocate the acid spells to the Elemental Prism theme.

The "prismatic" spells are mish-mash of elemental energies. Hypothetically, these spells can split up into different spells, one for each element. Such as Chaos Bolt becoming "Thunder Bolt" dealing lightning and thunder damage, plus other damage spells.

But, while the Prism theme stands, the conceptual versatility of acid can work well there.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Failing to include the psionic section now, means any psionic list in the future will be redundant and never part of the ODD game.

Psionics is now or never.

No it doesn’t it just means it will be part of a supplement.

 

[Yaarel]

No it doesn’t it just means it will be part of a supplement.

The history of D&D says otherwise.

Psionics must be part of core or it never happens well.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

The history of D&D says otherwise.

Psionics must be part of core or it never happens well.

So I just looked at Psionics in D&D and they are almost never core.

OD&D had them as part of a supplement
AD&D had optional rules for it in the PHB and DMG but no class to use them until a Dragon Magazine later on
2e had them as part of a supplement
3e had them as part of a supplement
4e had them as part of a supplement
5e had them as part of a supplement

 

[Cadence]

So I just looked at Psionics in D&D and they are almost never core.

OD&D had them as part of a supplement
AD&D had optional rules for it in the PHB and DMG but no class to use them until a Dragon Magazine later on
2e had them as part of a supplement
3e had them as part of a supplement
4e had them as part of a supplement
5e had them as part of a supplement

In which of those did they happen we'll?

 

[MonsterEnvy]

In which of those did they happen we'll?

I don’t know I never played with a Psion and I did not play anything before 3e.

 

[Aldarc]

Probably once we get to this level of division (13 overall families in 6 superfamilies), I think I'd rather go towards something like the bespoke spell traditions that Shadow of the Demon Lord uses.

Same. At this point, I would just use either the thematic spell tradition system of Shadow of the Demon Lord/Weird Wizard or the thematic arcana system of Fantasy AGE. There really is not a need, IMO, to overcomplicate this.

 

[Bupp]

I'm starting to think that the three spell lists are only for the benefit of the Magic Initiate feat.

 

[Gorck]

Yeah, I got that impression too. Presumably, Eldritch Blast is no longer a spell, but is instead a Warlock class feature.

Generally, I would rather a class avoid gatekeeping certain spells. Let the spell remain as a general spell. But I think it is ok if the Warlock has features to augment the Eldritch Blast. Similarly, a Fire Wizard might augment the Fireball spell.

That’s how it was in 3.5. The Eldritch Blast was a class feature that scaled similar to the Rogue’s sneak attack (starting at 1d6 and increasing another d6 at each odd level). There was an invocation called Hideous Blow that allowed you to channel your Eldritch Blast through your weapon strike. Back in the day, my group experimented with the gestault rules and I played a Rogue/Warlock. I was dropping d6s left and right.

 

[Marandahir]

I'd rather not split spells into power source categories like this, but instead give each power source access to different combinations of spells.

Sort of like what they're doing right now, but also create a Psionics spell list. And maybe a Fey or Shadow spell list, if that would be helpful. Maybe even a spell list for each of the 4 classical Elementals.

There's no reason to say one spell is only Arcane or only Psionic. Different power sources can access the same spell in different ways.

 

[Yaarel]

I'd rather not split spells into power source categories like this, but instead give each power source access to different combinations of spells.

Sort of like what they're doing right now, but also create a Psionics spell list. And maybe a Fey or Shadow spell list, if that would be helpful. Maybe even a spell list for each of the 4 classical Elementals.

There's no reason to say one spell is only Arcane or only Psionic. Different power sources can access the same spell in different ways.

Note.

The spell lists of each source are organizational, not prohibitive.

A "primal class" can use primal mechanics to cast from the elemental spell list.

An "arcane class" can use arcane mechanics to cast from the psionic spell list.

A "psionic class" can use psionic mechanics to cast from the arcane force spell list.

And so on.

 

[Yaarel]

Regarding mechanics, there sense that:

Arcane is a protoscience utilizing the magical properties of material components, including engineering an arcane spell focus, such as a wand.

Psionic utilizes the mind to will reality into existence.

Divine is linguistic, utilizing symbols and the cosmic archetypes of a sacred community.

Primal is wielding the energy of life.

Elemental is the consciousness inherent in matter.

These flavors imply mechanics.