Anyone else really dislike Ability Damage & Ability Drain?

[the Jester]

Are you talking about the difference in calculation time or the difference in effectiveness?

They go hand in hand.

Because, in terms of calculation time, not having access to Power Attack and similar round to round options might actually speed play so I'm not convinced this particular example is a strong one.

Sure, but now you're basically throwing out half of 3e. The game is built on all those fiddly bits.

In fact, I'd say its not the long term status changes that really slow down my play, but the plethera of minor tactical options - like Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Fighting Defensively, etc. - that tend to slow down attack resolution both on the front end by causing the player to dither and spend addiitonal time describing his choices and on the back end by forcing me to remember them (when attacked later, or when the player later in the rounds draws an AoO) and help the player calculate the results of his moment by moment choices.

Sure. But ability damage and dispelling- which IMHO is a worse offender- both cause a screeching halt for recalculation, especially when you're dealing with high level pcs. It's one thing if you just have to remember that you have a -1 to attacks and damage, but when it is -1 to attacks and damage with this weapon, -1 to attacks only with this other weapon, -1 to attacks and -2 to damage with this one, can't use feats A, B and C, can't use prestige class abilities, oh yeah, this magic item I have gives me my Strength bonus in temporary hit points when I use it, so I have to remember to lower that, etc etc ad infinitum...

You should know however that any time prestige classes are mentioned in the context of a problem, I'm typically going to answer that its the prestige class that is the primary source of the problem.

While that's a fine position to take, it's pretty arbitrary. While I'll admit a lot of prcs are problematic, not all are, and the mechanism is- again- a fairly central part of the ruleset. What we're talking about is the interaction of two fairly core game engine elements. Saying, "Oh, it's the prestige class' fault" is fine, but again, you're moving pretty far away from 3e's basic play assumptions.

As far as lost character abilities gained through feats, I don't see 'You could have Cleaved in this situation, but because you've taken 8 ability damage' or 'Your Int has fallen to 14 so now you can't cast your 5th level spells' as being a serious enough of an issue to seriously impact my position. To the extent that it is an issue, I'd personally find it more satisfying to remove the ability score requirements from feats than to remove ability damage, or to simply rule that ability drain did not impact access to feats.

Again, that's fine, but you're getting away from the core 3e engine.

Taking a high level character as an example here, a 14th level party whose cleric suddenly can't cast anything better than cure moderate wounds is nearly a death sentence. If that same party's wizard's best combat spell is suddenly Melf's acid arrow instead of prismatic spray, there's a huge loss of effectiveness.

Recalculating everything is a PITA in 3e, and (at least at mid to high levels) it comes up ALL THE TIME. Maybe not every single combat, but damn close. Between ability damage and drain, energy drain, dispels, disjunctions, etc, I probably watched my party spend as much time refiguring boni at actually taking actions in high-level combat.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Well said, Jester.

I'm also in the camp that, when I first came across them in 3E playtests, I thought that ability damage and drain were *fanstastic* ideas.

Now, not so much. The amount of recalculation required is a pain in the butt at run-time.

I still think they're better than 2E-and-earlier poison, but that's not, to my mind, saying that much.

 

[Celebrim]

Sure, but now you're basically throwing out half of 3e. The game is built on all those fiddly bits.

Is that supposed to be a defense of your position or a defense of mine?

While that's a fine position to take, it's pretty arbitrary. While I'll admit a lot of prcs are problematic, not all are, and the mechanism is- again- a fairly central part of the ruleset.

So central to the ruleset that they initially tacked in on as a set of essentialy optional rules in the DMG? It might be central to a certain sort of gameplay style that ended up becoming default in 3e, but I don't see how you can argue that the PrC is somehow more central to the game than ability damage. I mean, sure, my take on the game that PrC's are probably the worst idea introduced into 3e is not typical, but its certainly no farther away from 3e's basic play assumptions than removing ability damage. Personally, I think you can take PrC's completely out of 3e without effecting its basic engine and mechanics in the slightest.

I find your argument that I'm getting too far away from 3e's core engine odd, given that the topic seems to be, "Should we remove ability damage from the game because its too fiddly?"

Recalculating everything is a PITA in 3e, and (at least at mid to high levels) it comes up ALL THE TIME. Maybe not every single combat, but damn close. Between ability damage and drain, energy drain, dispels, disjunctions, etc, I probably watched my party spend as much time refiguring boni at actually taking actions in high-level combat.

So in other words, 3e uses alot of different bonuses and modifiers and removing ability damage (which is one of its most flavorful ones) would only begin to touch the problem and certainly wouldn't solve it. And, also, I might note that while 4e did away with ability damage, it kept the 'fiddly bits' as you put it in such a way that it doesn't matter that much that it did. The game is still fiddly, and as you say, it's on that fiddliness that the game is built.

 

[Mark CMG]

Ability Score Drain/Damage = Elegant in theory, awkward in practice.

I'm not sure there is a quick fix for this that completely mimics the effects currently in use but neither am I sure that it matters if the new solution looks exactly like the old solution. The problem in that dichotomy, IMO, is in working overly hard to mirror the previous conditions exactly rather than simply agreeing that the effects can be similar but different.

An accumulating -1 to all dice rolls made for the character as well as the lowering of DCs set by the character (particularly notable for spellcasters) by a like amount might be a "good enough" fix. You might have certain higher level situation be at -2 effect or higher. You might also have the duration be the variant that denotes the strength of what affliction is in play, lasting for a combat, an hour, a day, (some other length of time), or a lifetime (until counteracted).

 

[Celebrim]

The problem in that dichotomy, IMO, is in working overly hard to mirror the previous conditions exactly rather than simply agreeing that the effects can be similar but different.

A lot of the time the problem is see is after a while, people forget why they were making the change in the first place. If the problem with ability score drain is it is too fiddly, then a fix has to not be fiddly or you've had no net improvement. If you replace ability score drain with a mechanic that is even less unified, even less elegant, more variable, and less conceptually clear, then the question becomes, "Why did you replace it in the first place?"

A lot of the time as a designer you can see some inelegancy in the approach and spend a lot of time fiddling with different mechanics only to discover that the problem never was with the mechanic in the first place, but the thing you were using the mechanic for is inherently complex. And so, any mechanic whatsoever you use to simulate the thing acquires the properties you disliked.

Combat is a good example. People complain about how complicated combat is, and how long it takes to resolve it. But people also want tactical diversity and depth, and they also want the combat to be cinematic and evocative, and they also want the combat to be fair and meaningful, and they also want a certain amount of versimilitude. So, no matter what mechanic you use, you end up with some set of essential difficulties that are what in fact carries all those other things people want. It's quite possible to resolve combat with a coin flip or roshambo, and as fortune mechanics go its hard to beat that for ease of resolution.

But that's not what people really want. The biggest problem I usually saw in the house rules forum (back when we had one) was people didn't really know what they wanted.

I think what people really want isn't to get rid of the fiddly bits but a character sheet written in excel and/or some well labelled and preferably laminated note cards. One of the things I've learned over the years is how fiddly a mechanic seems is about half dependent on your level of organization and about half dependent on how fiddly you are. Really fiddly players should be matched with very organized ways of tracking their fiddly bits very early on.

 

[PowerMaster]

Interesting discussion. I too stumbled upon the problems that ability/level damage/drain cause.

I was attempting to discuss some simplification in this thread.

 

[jaywolfenstien]

I tend to love Ability damage/drain, but I would advise any DM to reserve it for important/climactic battles that you want to be memorable.

 

[NaturalFn20]

Ability drain doesn't bother me much. You lose 4 STR, -2 to hit. -2 damage. What's the problem?

I use a paper character sheet. Use pencil to fill in everything. Have a temporary slot for all ability drain/buffs.

You lose con, you put "temp hp" as your new hp.

You lose Charisma..you slit your wrist.

Plus, groups should start preparing restoration spells or carry a rod of bodily restoration with them.

 

[Jhaelen]

Ability drain doesn't bother me much. You lose 4 STR, -2 to hit. -2 damage. What's the problem?

What immediately comes to my mind:
- Reduce STR-based skills,
- check your new encumbrance,
- check feat and prestige-class requirements

Lowered ability scores have cascading effects that may unravel your entire character.

I clearly remember one fight in my game where a single well-rolled ray of feeblement caused the party's fighter to collapse under his own weight, effectively taking him out of combat.

 

[Drowbane]

With all due respect, I'm hearing a lot of "math is hard!". I've been playing 3e since it came out. Yes, dispelling is a pain in the rear... but I've never had trouble with Ability Damage/Drain.

If you get whacked with X to str, takes a minute to flip to the page in the PHB (or SRD) that has the encumbrance table. And the penalties to hit, damage, and skill checks are all pretty basic to figure out. Even if you are a Power Attacking two-handed barbarian (ok, then you might need the wizard player to help you ).

I can generally get these things jotted down before my turn comes up in the next round.

Back to dispelling, by mid-high level I come to game with two copies of my character, one fully buffed and tricked out, and the other everything off. Its not to difficult to find the middle ground when only a couple of my buffs get knocked out.

I do hate how vampires ruin your Con simply by drinking blood. Blood should replenish over time. And I've never liked negative levels (far worse in pre-3e).