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D&D 5E Anyone else think the Bard concept is just silly?

Aldarc

Legend
I can't choose how I want to interpret data. What is stopping me is the design intent. The thing in the book is not supposed to be a loremaster in the same way that a wizard is. It's disingenuous to pretend that the bard is casting spells that it learned from books, as a wizard would. If bard magic was the same as wizard magic, then they would own a spellbook and their spells would be powered by Intelligence.
The bard is a loremaster, albeit a different variety from the wizard. I don't think that's questionable. What I'm not following here is why not just play a wizard and be done with it? It seems as if you want the bard to look like a wizard, talk like a wizard, and walk like a wizard. So why not play a wizard? There is even a Loremaster subclass in UA. It needs to be tweaked, but it's a start.
 

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The bard is a loremaster, albeit a different variety from the wizard. I don't think that's questionable. What I'm not following here is why not just play a wizard and be done with it? It seems as if you want the bard to look like a wizard, talk like a wizard, and walk like a wizard. So why not play a wizard? There is even a Loremaster subclass in UA. It needs to be tweaked, but it's a start.
What I want to play is irrelevant to the topic at hand. This is a thread about bards, and how silly they are. And they are, because they get their magic from music and not from books.

The wizard existing in the role of serious loremaster doesn't make the bardic musician less silly. If anything, it highlights how silly the concept of the bard is, since the role of loremaster is already covered without resorting to musical shenanigans. The bard, as it is presented, has no place in the type of serious game that doesn't include song-based magic. If it was presented as a jack-of-all-trades, which studied wizardly magic alongside thiefly skills and fighting, then it would have a place in the type of serious game that doesn't include song-based magic.
 

Aldarc

Legend
What I want to play is irrelevant to the topic at hand. This is a thread about bards, and how silly they are. And they are, because they get their magic from music and not from books.

The wizard existing in the role of serious loremaster doesn't make the bardic musician less silly. If anything, it highlights how silly the concept of the bard is, since the role of loremaster is already covered without resorting to musical shenanigans. The bard, as it is presented, has no place in the type of serious game that doesn't include song-based magic. If it was presented as a jack-of-all-trades, which studied wizardly magic alongside thiefly skills and fighting, then it would have a place in the type of serious game that doesn't include song-based magic.
How does that make them "silly"? You keep saying "silly" but you appear to be using it not to mean "aesthetics I personally don't like regardless of whether they are suitable or not."
 

How does that make them "silly"? You keep saying "silly" but you appear to be using it not to mean "aesthetics I personally don't like regardless of whether they are suitable or not."
Yes, silliness is an inherently subjective concept. I think it's silly, so I say that it's silly. I don't consider these aesthetics to be suitable to a serious game.

The literal question in the title of this thread is, "Anyone else think the Bard concept is silly"; and my answer is "Yes, I do."
 

Aldarc

Legend
Yes, silliness is an inherently subjective concept. I think it's silly, so I say that it's silly. I don't consider these aesthetics to be suitable to a serious game.

The literal question in the title of this thread is, "Anyone else think the Bard concept is silly"; and my answer is "Yes, I do."
Sure, but you haven't really done a good job, IMHO, of reasonably explaining how, which is the fundamental problem.
 

Sure, but you haven't really done a good job, IMHO, of reasonably explaining how, which is the fundamental problem.
Dude, that was like the first thing I said in this thread! Musical magic doesn't jive with the established concept of magic as an inherently academic concept. Adding in another source of magic is just unnecessary complexity for a setting where we already have wizards and clerics.

If you want to have a setting where music is the source of magical power, then do that, but it doesn't need to also have wizards and clerics in it. If you add in too many discordant concepts together, then you end up with The Forgotten Realms.
 

Aldarc

Legend
I hope you don't mind me moving things around a bit.
Dude, that was like the first thing I said in this thread!

If you want to have a setting where music is the source of magical power, then do that, but it doesn't need to also have wizards and clerics in it. If you add in too many discordant concepts together, then you end up with The Forgotten Realms.
I have gone back and read your first post, which I will not bother quoting for the sake of space, but I still don't find it particularly convincing. In fifth edition, words of power (and music, by extension) is a source of magical power, but it is not the source of magical power. The approach that 5e takes is that there are multiple paths, philosophies, and flavors to magic (or the Weave). Sure the bard may have been "part wizard" in 2E, but that was also in the days before other arcanists, such as the sorcerer and warlock. Since then, the wizard's monopoly on arcane magic has been (thankfully) destroyed.

Furthermore, your original statement that marginalized the musical magic of the bard does not even make much sense in the context of 2E either. In the 2E PHB, for example, this was our first description the bard:
The bard is also a rogue, but he is very different from the thief. His strength is his pleasant and charming personality. With it and his wits he makes his way through the world. A bard is a talented musician and a walking storehouse of gossip, tall tales, and lore. He learns a little bit about everything that crosses his path; he is a jack-of-all-trades but master of none. While many bards are scoundrels, their stories and songs are welcome almost everywhere.
We get lots of music talk in this. Furthermore, the whole wizarding and spellbook approach of the bard felt a bit slapped-on, IMO, since the text refers to them as dabblers who pick up their spells more through "serendipity and happenstance" rather than study as per a wizard. The speaker even says that the bard uses their spells to "entertain and impress" as an extension of their performance.

The bard's approach to magic is similar to an artist, a dabbler, or a dilettante. It's "some" here and "some" there. The bard studies some, picks-up some knowledge on their travels, and some of the flavor text kinda implies that they mimic the power of the gods or at least the echoes of creation, which may explain their access to divine magic. The bard has the liberal arts approach to magic. If anything, the bard is even more of a magical dabbler* than they were in 2E.

* More in terms of breadth. In some respects, the fact that they now can cast 9th level spells, recasts the emphasis of their magical dabbling.

Musical magic doesn't jive with the established concept of magic as an inherently academic concept. Adding in another source of magic is just unnecessary complexity for a setting where we already have wizards and clerics.
Except that it isn't established at all, unless one privileges wizards as having the sole "true" concept of magic, which is exceptionally outdated in D&D. (But this may yet again speak to the privilege and double-standards granted in favor of the magic-user/wizard.) I don't think that one can reasonably argue that magic is inherently an academic concept when magical bards, warlocks, clerics, druids, sorcerers, rogues, fighters, rangers, paladins, barbarians, and monks all exist in this game who all have different philosophies and approaches to magic. Only wizards use tomes for their spells and magical studies, apart from ritualists and tomelocks, who get theirs from their patron. Bards have certainly not "devolved into is just a jumbled mess of pointless high-magic mumbo-jumbo that doesn't make any sense outside of the Forgotten Realms," but, rather, they have evolved and expanded just as magic in this game has. And I would also argue that the 5E bard does make plenty of sense in many settings outside of Forgotten Realms (e.g. Eberron, Planescape, etc.) though not all (e.g. Dark Sun).

It seems bizarre to say that the bard's approach to magic is inappropriate for a "serious game." That seems to involve an exceptionally narrow sense for what constitutes a "serious" game (of grown men pretending to be wizards and warriors fighting dragons), and, again, I suspect it's one that privileges wizards as having dominion to the truest expression of magic. A bard's magic says nothing about how "serious" the game is. It only says anything about how one envisions magic in a particular setting. If your homebrew setting does see magic as pure knowledge, science, and nerd-power-play, then I can see how the bard's magic can certainly seem inappropriate to the homebrew's aesthetic, but as per D&D's default assumptions for at least three editions? Nope.
 
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What I want to play is irrelevant to the topic at hand. This is a thread about bards, and how silly they are. And they are, because they get their magic from music and not from books.

The wizard existing in the role of serious loremaster doesn't make the bardic musician less silly. If anything, it highlights how silly the concept of the bard is, since the role of loremaster is already covered without resorting to musical shenanigans. The bard, as it is presented, has no place in the type of serious game that doesn't include song-based magic. If it was presented as a jack-of-all-trades, which studied wizardly magic alongside thiefly skills and fighting, then it would have a place in the type of serious game that doesn't include song-based magic.

Interesting. How would you view a wizard whose verbal components were chants, as opposed a bard whose spells were cast the same way?
 

cbwjm

Seb-wejem
Talking about magic, I tend to group them into the following:

Arcane (manipulates the underlying energies of the multiverse): Wizard, Warlock, Sorcerer.
Arcane Echo (taps into the echo of creation): Bard.
Divine (draws power from a divine source): Cleric, Paladin.
Nature (draws power from the natural world or from nature spirits): Druid, Ranger.

Arcane magic especially could also have smaller subsets of elemental and shadow magic drawing upon these realms of power to cast their spells. For instance, if I was going to create an elementalist, it would likely be an arcane class (I have created subclasses for the wizard, but if I was going to create a dedicated elementalist, its magic would be under the Arcane umbrella).

It's a pretty simple view for me, I haven't gone into it in great detail and part of it is drawn from earlier editions (4e's elemental chaos book, various 2e specialists, etc.)
 

Brandegoris

First Post
How does that make them "silly"? You keep saying "silly" but you appear to be using it not to mean "aesthetics I personally don't like regardless of whether they are suitable or not."

CORRECT!
That is the EXACT essence of this thread. :)
We are not declaring Badwrongfun on anyone that likes it! Some of us just need a little help visualizing a bard class because we find it a bit silly.
The class mechanics are pretty great. Its the persona that is a bit of a problem for many of us. Luckily there have been a lot of good responses in this thread however that has tweaked my perspective of how a bard can actually have a decent persona and so not be "stuck" as a silly troubadour. :)

Sidenote: Bards are Inspiring! They are inspiring folks all over this thread to be pissed that people view Bards a silly! LOLThey forget this is OPINION and doesn't even need to be backed up. Saying someone needs to "convince" you that bards are silly is...well silly :)
 
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