Anyone else wonder why they didn't combine the 3.5 spell system and the 4th edition..

[Psion]

And that's what rope trick is for.

Paladin: Quick! I know we are tired, but if the high priest finishes this ritual, the city's doom is sealed!
Wizard: But I've used my 5th level spell, rope trick!
Paladin: But...



To be fair, yes, rope trick is another one of those spells that may be too good at what it does for its level. But I would think that if I hadn't banned or (more likely) house ruled* it, I could think of a reasonable course of action for an enemy group who caught on to what the party was doing. And such a useful low level spell is sure to be known.

* - Indeed, I think that most of the abuses of rope trick rely on rather favorable interpretations. The ways I'd limit it would be more in the realm of rulings (with its level in mind) than house rules. For example, some people assume that you can't cross the boundary if the rope is gone... nothing about the spell text says that.

 

[Fifth Element]

Paladin: Quick! I know we are tired, but if the high priest finishes this ritual, the city's doom is sealed!
Wizard: But I've used my 5th level spell, rope trick!
Paladin: But...

(Rope trick is 2nd, not 5th.)

Players to DM: "Oh boy, another you must do this by this specific time so that we can't rest situation. Can't get enough of those."

The problem with that solution is that it gets really old, really fast. And yes, the problem is really with rope trick, and the 15-minute workday that is built into the 3.X rules. But it's part of the 3.5 magic system.

 

[Psion]

(Rope trick is 2nd, not 5th.)

I know that. I was trying to exemplify the over-cautious "I've used my highest level spell slot, I've got to rest now" wizard.

Players to DM: "Oh boy, another you must do this by this specific time so that we can't rest situation. Can't get enough of those."

DM: Oh boy, some more of those "how dare you challenge us instead of give us a cakewalk" players.

The problem with that solution is that it gets really old, really fast. And yes, the problem is really with rope trick, and the 15-minute workday that is built into the 3.X rules. But it's part of the 3.5 magic system.

I don't consider problem spells to be the whole magic system. The real "15 minute workday" problem isn't the system itself, but the mentality you suggest, the hyper-risk-averse and adversity-adverse mindset. Fortunately for me, I don't get many of those types of players at my table. My players come to my game because they are in the mood to adventure.

 

[Fifth Element]

I know that. I was trying to exemplify the over-cautious "I've used my highest level spell slot, I've got to rest now" wizard.

Okay, I misread your post. I see now.

DM: Oh boy, some more of those "how dare you challenge us instead of give us a cakewalk" players.

Could be. Could also be "how dare we want to play the game as the designers apparently intended, by giving us rope trick and such" players.

I don't consider problem spells to be the whole magic system. The real "15 minute workday" problem isn't the system itself, but the mentality you suggest, the hyper-risk-averse and adversity-adverse mindset. Fortunately for me, I don't get many of those types of players at my table. My players come to my game because they are in the mood to adventure.

I don't play conservatively myself and my players don't really either, but it is a fairly common approach to D&D it seems. Suggesting that this approach is a problem is basically an accusation of badwrongfun.

 

[DocS]

Repeating myself, but I found that the warriors types got plenty of chance to strut their stuff when the wizard was tapped out

So the fighters get to strut their stuff 'when the wizard was tapped out'?

I think that says it all about whether your personal experience found that warrior types were of equal efficacy to wizard types. The warrior types were the second string, only getting to strut their stuff when the first string wizard was either tired or conserving himself for something important.

Note the language used there too. The 'Warriors' (plural) got to shine when the 'wizard' (singular) was tapped out. Evidently the Wizard was the single most important member, once he was tired, multiple party members had to step up to fill the void.

Imagine you're a basketball coach. You save Jordan for important games because he is the best player and you don't want him to expend his valuable energy in less than necessary places. However, given that, It's silly to say that Shecky McSecondstring is equal to Jordan because Shecky gets to shine "When Jordan is tapped out".

I don't disagree with your observation, I think this is exactly what you're seeing. You're seeing games where the other classes (plural) get to shine... when the wizard (singular) is tapped out (or 'conserving himself' for something important), which is what most people saw. It's only that most people recognized the significance of that behavior instead of trying to argue that that behavior is somehow illustrative of game balance.

and when the party was faced with challenges that were resistant or immune to magic. The high level creature selection is peppered with such challenges.

Already refuted previously by others.

Seriously dude, a wizard player who swears when he can't overcome SR is a wizard player who is a bit dim...

Smart ones can easily do magics where spell immunity is irrelevant

 

[Remathilis]

Paladin: Quick! I know we are tired, but if the high priest finishes this ritual, the city's doom is sealed!
Wizard: But I've used my 5th level spell, rope trick!
Paladin: But...

Hyperbole. How about...

"Ok guys, the first room had a trio of grimlocks. Not bad. We took them out with our warriors and some fireballs, and the cleric patched us up. Next was the bodak, and thankfully the wizard had halt undead while our cleric cast his death ward up. After that, we faced the mindflayer, which was really hard thanks to Bob's low will save. Someone give that man a +1 cloak or something. Only three more rooms between us and victory. Come on guys!"

"But, our wizard has cantrips left, our cleric has no cure spells left, the rogue has dex poison damage and Bob's out of rages for the day. We need to rest. We can't take another combat of our level, let alone a possible three."

"But the high priest is going to finish the ritual at midnight!"

"So let him. We can't take another fight like that. Besides, all those summoned Demons are more XP for us."

"..."

Least that's how the 15 minute workday worked for me. Three rooms, then rest. The fourth one is a TPK. Unless your dungeons have no more than three combats in it (or have multiple combats with foes so weak they pose no challenge to the party, the 32 orcs vs a 10th level group) time-challenge adventures always failed.

 

[Psion]

I don't play conservatively myself and my players don't really either, but it is a fairly common approach to D&D it seems. Suggesting that this approach is a problem is basically an accusation of badwrongfun.

Considering how many people in this thread are telling me I'm doing it wrong, and how many times* I've said "if this doesn't suit your playstyle, then by all means use 4e", I'm not going to own that one.

* - This is the 4th by my count.

 

[Staffan]

For example, some people assume that you can't cross the boundary if the rope is gone... nothing about the spell text says that.

Sure the boundary can be crossed, but since it's likely to be up in the air somewhere that's not something that will happen by someone just walking around. Also, spells can't cross the boundary, and it blocks AoEs as well.

 

[Psion]

Hyperbole. How about...

"Ok guys, the first room had a trio of grimlocks. Not bad. We took them out with our warriors and some fireballs, and the cleric patched us up. Next was the bodak, and thankfully the wizard had halt undead while our cleric cast his death ward up. After that, we faced the mindflayer, which was really hard thanks to Bob's low will save. Someone give that man a +1 cloak or something. Only three more rooms between us and victory. Come on guys!"

"But, our wizard has cantrips left, our cleric has no cure spells left, the rogue has dex poison damage and Bob's out of rages for the day. We need to rest. We can't take another combat of our level, let alone a possible three."

That, of course, posits a situation I would never engineer. I do try to get players to tap into their reserves and thus give the classes with a better endurance a time to shine. This is not the same thing as pushing them on when the next fight will assuredly kill them.

Indeed, the example I gave was a bit extreme for the sake of brevity. A "drop dead hour", while a possibility, is not a regular occurrence. I do often introduce conditions that make parties think twice about resting just to recover one spell or heal to full HP. Things like re-enforcements, a changing situation like knowing where the bad guy is today but he's going to leave soon... is recovering worth the risk of losing him, etc.

 

[Psion]

Sure the boundary can be crossed, but since it's likely to be up in the air somewhere that's not something that will happen by someone just walking around. Also, spells can't cross the boundary, and it blocks AoEs as well.

Yep, that it does say. My point was, don't assume that someone who can detect magic and knows what the spell is can't make life miserable for you... build a ladder up to the entrance (or use flying if it has it), build a fire in the room and fill it with choking smoke, leave traps for you, etc.