Anyone Have New Occupations or Talents?

[D_Sinclair]

I am wondering if you have actually seen the product of which you write. I would have to assume, based on your statement, that you are criticizing the product sight unseen, as the talent trees have been genericized--as mentioned above--so that they will work with any class, basic, advanced, or prestige. Some are not easy to obtain, as suits a talent tree designed for a prestige class, but all are accessible to all classes.

Cheers.

As a matter of fact, I have seen them. There are office copies here. Let's take an example, since they are OGC, and let others judge if they want a 6th level basic classed character having such an overpowering feat:

Clear the Room: In most situations, characters involved in an assault will be armed with automatic weapons capable of burst fire. When using a weapon that has either automatic or burst fire capacity, the character can subject opponents to autofire but will not subject any friendly or non-hostile targets to the effects of autofire. The autofire attack is made as per the normal rules, but the character may choose which targets in the area of effect are subject to the autofire attack. Those targets that are subject to the autofire attack must make a Reflex save as per the autofire rules or be subject to damage.
The Clear the Room class feature may also be used with the Strafe feat.
When using this talent, the character may make an autofire or strafe attack with weapons that have automatic and burst fire capacity or weapons that have burst fire but do not have automatic fire capacity.
Using the Clear the Room talent uses six bullets even when using a weapon with a burst setting. The Clear the Room talent may only be used with a weapon that has at least six bullets loaded.
Prerequisites: Instinctive Shooting.

Providing covering fire without a weapon capable of it, immunity from cover fire for the friendlies, and save some bullets to boot. In my opinion, it is suitable for a mid level class feature for an advanced class, but certainly not something to hand out for the basic classes. And, if these talent trees are accessible for every basic class, why on earth would a Charismatic Hero or Dedicated Hero have access to such a talent in the first place? Accessibility is not the same thing as suitablility.

 

[DnDChick]

Inspired by the Defensive talent tree for the Fast Hero in d20 Modern, which is basically the Uncanny Dodge class ability of the Rogue, I am tinkering with taking some of the other "signature" class abilities of the D&D classes and converting them to d20 Modern talent trees.

 

[kingpaul]

On a side note, those continue a bad trend started by RPGObjects of calling chains of specialized class abilities for advanced and prestige classes "talent chains".

I'm confused by this statement. What's wrong with giving advanced and prestige classes special abilities?

 

[FraserRonald]

As a matter of fact, I have seen them. There are office copies here. Let's take an example, since they are OGC, and let others judge if they want a 6th level basic classed character having such an overpowering feat

That's an interesting statement, so let's look at it.

The prerequisite listed is Instinctive Shooting. To get Instinctive Shooting, the character needs Breaching. To get Breaching, the character needs CQD. To get CQD, the character needs Disable Device 6 ranks, Knowledge (tactics) 4 ranks, Move Silently 6 ranks, Spot 6 ranks, Advanced Firearms Proficiency, Personal Firearms Proficiency, Precise Shot.

Precise Shot requires Point Blank Shot. With the right occupation, Advanced Firearms Proficiency, Personal Firearms Proficiency, and Point Blank Shot could be acquired at first level. Precise Shot could be acquired at 3rd level. No problem.

In any case, to get CQD, the character needs to be at least 3rd level in order to have all the required skill ranks. 6 ranks in 3 different skills, 4 ranks in another, so of the physical classes, only Fast Hero can do it without an Intelligence of 14 or higher. Disable Device and Knowledge (tactics) are not class skills for the Fast Hero. The only occupation that has both as permanent class skills is Adventurer, which would seem odd for a character so focused on close quarters battle.

The other option is to go with a Smart Hero. It would actually be easier to build the character with Smart Hero than any of the physical classes. I would question this kind of character build. I'm not saying I wouldn't allow it, but in one of my games, the PC would really have to give a good history or backstory to explain an Adventurer or Smart Hero as a CQB expert, but that's me. If that is not an issue, so be it.

That's a long-winded way of saying if you really want to start CQD at 3rd level, it is possible.

If the character takes CQD at 3rd level, the character must then take the Assault Talent Tree exclusively for his/her next 3 talent tree buys. Rather than 6th level, by 9th level, the character can, in fact, have Clear the Room. A very focused character, focused exclusively on close quarters combat.

I honestly don't see a problem with that.

Your mileage obviously varies. That's fine. If these calculations seem unreasonable to others, they will vote with their dollars and avoid Talent Trees Assembled like the plague. That wouldn't make me happy, but that's the way it goes.

Hopefully they will judge by the reviews, comments and performance of the other products in the Roles and Classes line, along with the reasoning above, as to the soundness of what is being presented.

 

[FraserRonald]

Providing covering fire without a weapon capable of it, immunity from cover fire for the friendlies, and save some bullets to boot. In my opinion, it is suitable for a mid level class feature for an advanced class, but certainly not something to hand out for the basic classes.

Then don't allow them to have it. Problem solved.

Part of the reason to genericize the talent trees is so that they could be used with other published and unpublished classes, be they basic, advanced or prestige. This is not a core rulebook. It is a resource for players and GMs. The GM is always the final arbiter and can say "not for a basic class," or "not in my game." If the GM does not have that kind of control at his or her table, I suspect that our talent trees will be the least of their concerns.

And, if these talent trees are accessible for every basic class, why on earth would a Charismatic Hero or Dedicated Hero have access to such a talent in the first place? Accessibility is not the same thing as suitablility.

At the risk of sounding redundant, then don't allow them to have it. Problem solved.

As I mentioned in my previous post, if I had a player with a Smart, Dedicated or Charismatic Hero that wanted access to the Assault Talent Tree, I would require an explanation, something in the character's history or backstory, or maybe something from the campaign itself that justified it. That's me. Someone else might just say "no Assault talent tree for basic classes," or "no Assault talent tree for non-physical classes," or whatever. No problem.

I will assume that no Smart Heroes in your game will have Assault, or Sniper, or any of the others that come from the prestige classes. No problem.

Cheers all.

 

[D_Sinclair]

I'm confused by this statement. What's wrong with giving advanced and prestige classes special abilities?

First, I want to point out my judgment of Talent Trees Assembled evolved out of comparing it with other talent tree products, primarily 22 Talent Trees, Another 22 Talent Trees, and Martial Avengers. Second, I want to point out that my response is quite long winded.

There's nothing wrong with giving advanced and prestige classes special abilities. After all, what are the class features if not special abilities? Problem is in the way they were given. Most authors create very structured classes, "level X gives you ability Y", as has long been the tradition with D&D. However, with the release of the Blood & Guts 1st edition line, it suddenly became "levels X, X+2, X+4, X+6 & X+8 give you a choice of A through M". That's fine and dandy, except for the fact that they identified them as talent trees rather than class abilities.

The problem was in identifying them as talents. Inevitably, people equate them with the talents provided by the basic classes. In turn, this results in players, even experienced ones, at least wondering why those talent trees weren't assigned to the basic classes and a few have even demanded they be made available for the only classes that are supposed to have talents, the basic classes. Even RPGObjects has shifted away from genericly calling them talent trees anymore, instead referring to it as "advanced training talents" in Blood & Guts 2, hopefully in order to make it quite clear they aren't meant for the basic characters.

That aside, the B&G talent trees were specifically assigned to classes via access to "Special Ops Talents" specified as a class feature, rather than being "accessible to everyone". If they had been made available to everyone capable of taking talents, all it would have done is facilitate some horrible powermongering in the basic classes. Mr. Ronald, with his first RPG credits coming from a Blood & Guts supplement, has choosen to continue the trend he adopted in B&G: In Her Majesty's Service, and rather than at least keeping those talent trees associated with specific classes, I feel he has compounded the problem by genericizing the talents, which consists of nothing more than adding prerequisites to everything, some of which are rather questionable.

An example of one of these sometimes quesionable prerequisites comes from the CQB ability. It allows you to fire a gun in a room without incurring AoO's. What precisely does 6 ranks of Disable Device have to do with that? I could understand it as a prerequisite for a later ability in that particular chain, Breaching, where you're bursting into a room with guns blazing, but I don't see how it has anything to do with simply being in a room, shooting at people and avoiding becoming a target.

Every other product I've seen that introduced new talent trees has always associated them with an existing or newly introduced class, primarily attaching them to the basic ones. Mr. Ronald failed to do even that, instead declaring in this thread that they are accessible to any class. However, it doesn't actually say anything of the sort inside the product. And he so far isn't at least limiting it to classes that utilize talent trees. Nor does he offer anything in the way of rules or advice on how to add them to other classes as either additional abilities or substitutions for existing class abilities. For example, exactly how am I supposed to make these talent trees available to the Soldier AdC? This product just presents a bunch of talent trees and absolutely nothing to help you get it into play.

As I pointed out before, none of the talent trees is really suited to the nature of any of the basic classes. Mr. Ronald's solution, according to his posts here, is "GM discretion" - don't like it, then don't allow it. As a game master, I certainly don't want to have a product like this dumped in my lap by a player, forcing me to develop all the guidelines to use that should have been presented with the book. This means there is a high likelihood that purchasers of previous talent tree products that were actually designed to drop right into the basic classes will be buying this product with the expectation that it will drop right like those other products.

In my opinion, this product is seriously flawed because it is unfinished. My disapproval stems entirely from issues the product makes no effort to address. I also doubt I am going to be the only one displeased with it in this fashion. I expect a lot of people who are currently thrilled with the product are going to be very displeased once they try putting it into play.

 

[kingpaul]

There's nothing wrong with giving advanced and prestige classes special abilities. After all, what are the class features if not special abilities? Problem is in the way they were given. Most authors create very structured classes, "level X gives you ability Y", as has long been the tradition with D&D. However, with the release of the Blood & Guts 1st edition line, it suddenly became "levels X, X+2, X+4, X+6 & X+8 give you a choice of A through M". That's fine and dandy, except for the fact that they identified them as talent trees rather than class abilities.

But Modern isn't D&D. The core classes had talents, its an extension of that to call what the prestige classes have talents as well...granted their Special Ops Talents to differentiate. After all, a Strong Hero can't access the Smart Hero talents via the Strong class.

Even RPGObjects has shifted away from genericly calling them talent trees anymore, instead referring to it as "advanced training talents" in Blood & Guts 2, hopefully in order to make it quite clear they aren't meant for the basic characters.

But then, using that logic, they did that in BnG1 as well. As I said, they were called Special Ops Talents (I'm looking at my copy right now just to be sure).

That aside, the B&G talent trees were specifically assigned to classes via access to "Special Ops Talents" specified as a class feature, rather than being "accessible to everyone". If they had been made available to everyone capable of taking talents, all it would have done is facilitate some horrible powermongering in the basic classes. Mr. Ronald, with his first RPG credits coming from a Blood & Guts supplement, has choosen to continue the trend he adopted in B&G: In Her Majesty's Service, and rather than at least keeping those talent trees associated with specific classes, I feel he has compounded the problem by genericizing the talents, which consists of nothing more than adding prerequisites to everything, some of which are rather questionable.

Alright, I'm now looking at my copy of BnG:IHMS. Those classes utilize the Special Ops Talents as laid out in BnG. I'm also seeing Talents embedded in the class that the player must choose from that list. Is this the issue that you have, calling these class-only abilities Talents?

 

[FraserRonald]

Actually, thanks for the explanation of the specific problems you find with Talent Trees Assembled. I think I better understand your aversion of the product. I'll try to address the concerns you've raised.

The problem was in identifying them as talents. Inevitably, people equate them with the talents provided by the basic classes.

I guess I could have called them "class ability trees" or something similar, but because of the fine example of a linked group of abilities presented in the core rulebook, I believed using the term "talent trees" would actually avoid confusion. If at least one person is confused by the term applied to talents outside the basic classes, it is likely there are more. That is unfortunate. I honestly don't think using another term would avoid that confusion, as the term would have no point of reference, whereas talent trees does.

Part of what has happened with Roles and Classes is a change in how we at SEP are approaching the idea of classes. The specialized classes are a departure from the strictures of class laid down in the core rulebook. They change, perhaps only tweak, class progression, as now there is a step between basic and advanced. Some people won't like it, some people do. I imagine it will be the same with these talent trees. Some people don't like talent trees outside of the basic classes, some people--hopefully--will.

If they had been made available to everyone capable of taking talents, all it would have done is facilitate some horrible powermongering in the basic classes.

I'm afraid I don't agree with this, but I believe it is in part the application of the term "powermongering." I don't think the talents presented, along with their prerequisites, are particularly unbalancing. As in the example above, I don't think having CQD at 3rd level or having Clear the Room at 9th is unbalancing or powermongering. As illustrated, it would need the player to complete focus the character in order to achieve that, ignoring other possible and beneficial talents, not to mention the feats and skills necessary to obtain the talent. If a player wishes to have a character that tightly focused, the character will be top heavy, aimed at a specific situation, and outside of that situation, the character will be weak. There are those who won't agree and they won't purchase the product.

An example of one of these sometimes quesionable prerequisites comes from the CQB ability. It allows you to fire a gun in a room without incurring AoO's. What precisely does 6 ranks of Disable Device have to do with that?

I would completely agree with you if this were a feat. However, the Assault talent tree explicitly states: "The Assault talent tree is based on the room-clearing and hostage rescue training most special operations forces undergo." Part of that training, and therefore part of the prerequisites for entering the talent tree is accessing areas and facilitating that entry. As such, I would argue that Disable Device is a proper prerequisite.

However, it doesn't actually say anything of the sort inside the product. And he so far isn't at least limiting it to classes that utilize talent trees. Nor does he offer anything in the way of rules or advice on how to add them to other classes as either additional abilities or substitutions for existing class abilities.

You are absolutely right. This is a design flaw in the product and one I committed believing brevity was important. It is one I can, and will, correct. I apologize (this is not sarcasm). I had not thought instructions would be necessary, but you are correct in stating that they are. There will certainly be individuals unsure of how to apply these new talent trees, and I have failed to provide a complete product by not addressing that.

There will be an update, there will also be a web enhancement discussing the application of talent trees outside of the classes presented in Roles and Classes. If this is an issue for anyone reading, you can refrain from purchasing the product until this deficiency has been addressed, or you can purchase it now as RPG Now has a revision system whereby customers will receive revisions of products they have purchased. Further, the web enhancement will be free, so it may be worth your while to wait until that come out, look at how the product approaches use of the talent trees, and make your decision from that.

As we were in the final stages of a big product right now, the web enhancement and update may take a few weeks. For that, I again apologize.

As I pointed out before, none of the talent trees is really suited to the nature of any of the basic classes.

In that the basic classes are generic, lacking a core focus, I would agree. However, in my game, and maybe in the games of others, I like to give my players the option of adding a focus or at least of doing something different, beyond what is presented in the core rulebook. That thinking directly led to the specialized classes. It is something that others will avoid, and that's fine. Everyone has a different style of play. If added talent trees available to basic classes is something that one feels would unbalance one's campaign, do not purchase Talent Trees Assembled.

As a game master, I certainly don't want to have a product like this dumped in my lap by a player, forcing me to develop all the guidelines to use that should have been presented with the book.

And I can understand that, which is why we will expand the product and offer a web enhancement outlining our approach to including talent trees into a campaign.

This means there is a high likelihood that purchasers of previous talent tree products that were actually designed to drop right into the basic classes will be buying this product with the expectation that it will drop right like those other products.

Well, the product description does not hide the fact that these talent trees come from specialized and prestige classes, all of which are listed. I'm not trying to fool anyone as to its contents. I honestly don't think a more explicit warning is necessary, but others may disagree. What does everyone think the product page should have on it to indicate the origins of the talent trees, to help customers in their purchase decision?

In my opinion, this product is seriously flawed because it is unfinished. My disapproval stems entirely from issues the product makes no effort to address. I also doubt I am going to be the only one displeased with it in this fashion. I expect a lot of people who are currently thrilled with the product are going to be very displeased once they try putting it into play.

I will attempt to address some of your concerns with an update and web enhancement, though as I don't agree with all of your concerns, this will not change your opinion of the product. That's unfortunate, but expected, as not everyone has the same tastes. As for individuals being displeased, if they email me or anyone at SEP and let us know, we'll find a way to compensate them.

Thanks for outlining your concerns so completely. I hope I've addressed at least some of them.

 

[Timespike]

Check out the Roles & Classes series that we have put out recently at RPGNow. We have also put out a collection of them in one assembled book titled Talent Trees Assembled. Check it out.

I'll second that. That series is excellent, despite the argument here. (As far as I know, I'm the only one to have reviewed them on RPGNow thus far.) Also, you may want to try the following if the SEP line doesn't do it for you (or even if it does):

Postmodern: Traits & Flaws
Postmodern: The Versatile Hero
22 Talent Trees
Another 22 Talent Trees
The Mystical Hero
The Psychic Hero
Modern System: Characters

I have all of these, they're all available on RPGnow, they're all pretty good, and the entire stack will cost you probably about 20 bucks or so. And once you've got them, you will have the opposite problem and posess TOO MANY options.

 

[Timespike]

You know, one thing that seems to be getting swept aside in this argument is the "fight fire with fire" principle. Once something becomes available, EVERYBODY gets access to it. The other players, the GM, everybody. As I've stated in reviews of RPG Now, I've retrofitted NPCs with Specialized classes, and they're now MUCH closer to what I was originally picturing. A couple of quick examples (my game is post-apocalyptic with magic, BTW):

The head of an elite group of evil battlemages that was supposed to be an excellent marksman went from being a Strong Hero 4/Mage 5/Arcane Spec Op 5 to a Strong Hero 1/Combat Hero 3/Mage 5/Arcane Spec Op 5 He's less of a melee threat now, and is better with his OTS-14A Groza rifle, which is more what I was picturing from the start.

The basic template for a particularly nasty group of NPC mercenaries called the Stalkers went from Dedicated Hero 3/Tracer 10 to Smart Hero 2/Combat Hero 1/Covert Hero 3/Tracer 7

The Locusts, my swarming raiders are now Tough 2/Combat 2 rather than tough 4.

A particularly well-connected trader went from charismatic 3/trader 10 to Smart 1/Capable 3/trader 9

I could go on. My point is that once the proverbial genie is out of the bottle, it grants everybody's wishes equally. I know the d20 modern rules pretty solidly. I can make them dance & sing to any tune I want. Learn to do the same, and you'll have to worry less.