Anyone picked up True Sorcery?

[JohnSnow]

Or you could just use the Casting Buffer rules described on page 19.

Which looks like the best solution to me for d20 Modern games. Actually, it makes a LOT of sense. Of course, an evil GM might use the casting buffer to REPLACE drain...and once the buffer was gone, the character takes LETHAL damage. And you wouldn't have to grant d8's for the buffer.

 

[hong]

Have you wonderful folks at Green Ronin looked at how Drain interacts with the Modern non-lethal damage system?

D20M's nonlethal system is kinda goofy.

 

[Psion]

Oddly enough, I've never met anyone personally who uses the as-written non-lethal damage system in modern.

I was about to make THAT comment, too...

 

[jaerdaph]

Ahem. There are some of us out there that do use the d20 Modern nonlethal damage rules as written.

Now I'm curious because I'm thinking of picking this up. What kind of drain are we talking about here - temporary ability score drain? If so, then in d20 Modern, the nonlethal rules don't really come in to play.

 

[Henry]

Ahem. There are some of us out there that do use the d20 Modern nonlethal damage rules as written.

Now I'm curious because I'm thinking of picking this up. What kind of drain are we talking about here - temporary ability score drain? If so, then in d20 Modern, the nonlethal rules don't really come in to play.

The day I meet you in person (at a Gencon, perhaps), then I'll have to change my statement.

If it's still similar to the BCCS rules, drain is nonlethal damage, in the 3.0/3.5 D&D style. One quirk - in the original system, there's nothing that heals nonlethal damage except time. So, there's only so much you can do before you have to catch your breath. However, because casters regain nonlethal hourly, then it's a different dynamic from D&D, where you shoot your ordnance for the day and you must wait a day, or at least 8 hours. You can make camp and catch your breath a short while, and cast some more; or, a good 6 to 10 hours of rest (depending on bonus hit points from CON) later, and you're full up, again. Also, if you're drained from casting spells near to the breaking point, one good thwack from an enemy sword or rifle butt, and you're out like a light. I'd have loved rules like these when the original Dragonlance Saga was all the rage; I can easily envision Raistlin as a low-level True Sorcery spellcaster with a low con and hit points, who frequently needed rest after casting his spells, because he was physically exhausted. Of course, I could do the same thing with CON ability damage, too, it's just far nastier on the PC.

 

[Nebulous]

Ok, i've spent the morning rolling up a character and making a spell: Scorching Ray, as per the example on page 67. Initial thoughts: I am sorta displeased. I'll tell you what i did and maybe i did something wrong.

3rd level character. Stats: 10/10/10/16/10/16

BAB +1, 42 Skill Points

I divived up skill points into the new skills, which put a hurt on basics, like Spot and Search and Listen. That was my choice though, fine. I do like having Detect Magic and Ghost sound as skills though.

Moving on...

I started with 2 starting feats: Combat Casting and i took Talent: Beast Lore, a spell.
Bonus 1st: Spell Energy Reservoir. I also have Student of Magic which grants +1 spell energy
I also picked another Talent: Light Lore. 3rd level: Skill Focus (spellcraft) +3, my third Talent (spell) which was Light Lore. So i can now cast 3 spells: Beast, Light and Force and all the variations beneath. As my normal 3rd level feat i took Toughness (using my houserule of level +3 for 6 hitpoints)

So, at 3rd level i have 2 Spell Points (Student of Magic +1 and Energy Reservoir +1), 18 hitpoints. (6 + 3 + 3 +6 toughness)

So, i wanted to see what kind of use i would be in a combat situation. Scorching Ray is almost exactly like the one on page 67, but i bumped down the Range to 30', so the DC to cast it is 42. The DC to resist for half damage is Fort 14. The spell inflicts 3d6 fire damage.

I maxed out spellcraft, 6 ranks, +3 Int, + 2 Student of Magic, + 3 skill focus, +2 synergy for 5 ranks in Prestidigation when casting Light spells = +16

The DC for Scorching Ray is 42, minus +16 (I'm calcuating the casting time here, assuming the spell is not prepared ahead of time, i can prepare 3 spells) for 26. According to Table 2-3, prior to errata, this spell will take 10 Actions to cast.

The non-lethal damage for casting this spell is base 1d8 plus the DC 42 divided by 5 = 8, so 1d8 + 8. This is slightly buffered by my 2 spell points, so effectively 1d8 +6. So hit or miss, i take at least 7 subdual damage, max 14 (of 18 hitpoints)

Options: to hit the DC, i can burn a spell point to add +10 to my Spell Craft, so it would be +26 plus 1d20 to hit DC 42. I would also take 2d8 + 7 (minus the one spell point left) of non-lethal damage. It is still a ranged touched attack, +1 bonus (no Dex bonus for me).

So, while this system DOES work..........i'm thinking right now that it takes A LOT of thought, maybe more than i'm prepared to invest, much less explain to a busy DM, and the chances of hitting that DC aren't too good, and i could damn well get knocked unconscious, or close to it. This is assuming that I'm at full health. I even used a house rule for Toughness that gave me bonus hit points. Now, the character was not min-maxed. I picked average physical scores and boosted scores that would aid spellcasting. Of course, every score comes in useful pretty much, depending on what you're doing.

Comparitively, here's Scorching Ray from the SRD:

Scorching Ray
Evocation [Fire]
Level:Sor/Wiz 2
Components:V, S
Casting Time:1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect:One or more rays
Duration:Instantaneous
Saving Throw:None
Spell Resistance:Yes
You blast your enemies with fiery rays. You may fire one ray, plus one additional ray for every four levels
beyond 3rd (to a maximum of three rays at 11th level). Each ray requires a ranged touch attack to hit and deals
4d6 points of fire damage.
The rays may be fired at the same or different targets, but all bolts must be aimed at targets within 30 feet of
each other and fired simultaneously.

Note that there is no Saving Throw, whereas the other is a DC to cast, a Ranged Touch, and a Save. And less damage.

Now, i do recall that the precise focus of this book is subtely over power, and that is exactly what is happening here. I can cast a lot of lesser, safer spells, but the balance of power is 180 degrees from what I - we - are used to. And i'm not sure that's what i'm looking for.

Furthermore, even tinkering mildly with the augmentations of a spell will suck up game time as I frantically flip back and forth and recalculate DC's. Having a set, prepared spell is fine, but casting spells on the fly will be much more problematic.

 

[igavskoga]

So, at 3rd level i have 2 Spell Points (Student of Magic +1

Student of Magic, which I'm assuming is the equivallent of Student of Wizardry class feature from BCCS, no longer gives Con Mod + 1 in spell energy?

The DC to resist for half damage is Fort 14.

Also, typically spells that require a ranged touch attack only have a save associated with them if there's alternate effect. Otherwise its either/or. Is this changed in True Sorcery?

It can get a bit discouraging trying to replicate old familiar spells, but not all of them are a good fit in this system and not all of them are as efficient. Light Talent, if I remember right from BCCS, requires a whopping +20 DC to make it deal damage -- not entirely efficient. You'd be better off whacking them with a force effect or doing something neat with Beast Lore (which isn't in BCCS so I'm very curious as to what it does ).

One thing to be aware of when trying to recreate the hallmark D&D spells is that the levels of efficiency for damage spells are not the same -- as is illustrated here. Trying to use Light Talent to do a scorching ray isn't entirely efficient until later on than one might be used to. In your setup, using Force is far better as a combat bludgeon.

IMO, I still think one of the best things about the system is getting away from the X/Day mechanic and being able to tailor things on the fly. Its staggeringly liberating.

Furthermore, even tinkering mildly with the augmentations of a spell will suck up game time as I frantically flip back and forth and recalculate DC's. Having a set, prepared spell is fine, but casting spells on the fly will be much more problematic.

This is nothing a little preparation won't fix. Write up a number of spell effects you think you'll commonly use beforehand. Consolidate all the augmentation costs on a single page (using word, excel, or even notepad), along with the costs specific to the handful of Talents your character possesses. This will eliminate a lot of the page flipping. Casting spells on the fly becomes easier as you get more familiar with the system, just as remembering the save DC or exact range of Melf's Acid Arrow becomes easier the more you use the spell. There can be just as much page flipping involved with a d20 caster who doesn't prepare adequately beforehand -- only their spell list is a lot larger.

 

[Nebulous]

Student of Magic, which I'm assuming is the equivallent of Student of Wizardry class feature from BCCS, no longer gives Con Mod + 1 in spell energy?

my guy didn't have a Con bonus, but i don't see that rule in the book, i might be missing it. Seems like you get SE when taking the Reservoir feat or gaining Magnitude.

Also, typically spells that require a ranged touch attack only have a save associated with them if there's alternate effect. Otherwise its either/or. Is this changed in True Sorcery?

Here's the table from the book: Could be that it's errata.

Scorching Ray
Spellcraft: DC 44; Component: V; Range: 50 ft.; Effect:
Ray; Duration: Instantaneous; Saving Throw: Fortitude
half; Spell Resistance:No.
You fire a beam of concentrated light. If you succeed on a
ranged touch attack, you deal 3d6 points of fire damage.
Math: DC 5 base, ray (+20), +40 ft. (+4), increase to d6 (+5),
+2d6 (+10).

It can get a bit discouraging trying to replicate old familiar spells, but not all of them are a good fit in this system and not all of them are as efficient. Light Talent, if I remember right from BCCS, requires a whopping +20 DC to make it deal damage -- not entirely efficient. You'd be better off whacking them with a force effect or doing something neat with Beast Lore (which isn't in BCCS so I'm very curious as to what it does ).

One thing to be aware of when trying to recreate the hallmark D&D spells is that the levels of efficiency for damage spells are not the same -- as is illustrated here. Trying to use Light Talent to do a scorching ray isn't entirely efficient until later on than one might be used to. In your setup, using Force is far better as a combat bludgeon.

IMO, I still think one of the best things about the system is getting away from the X/Day mechanic and being able to tailor things on the fly. Its staggeringly liberating.

I do like the concept of tailoring spells on the fly. I really have no hands on experience with this, so the post was just my initial impressions. However, i don't think that tinkering is going to intuitive or fast anytime soon.

 

[iwatt]

Furthermore, even tinkering mildly with the augmentations of a spell will suck up game time as I frantically flip back and forth and recalculate DC's. Having a set, prepared spell is fine, but casting spells on the fly will be much more problematic.

Well, you could include the vocal and somatic components, for an extra +10 bonus to your spellcraft check. Add in material components if you want and you can increase your Spellcraft bonus even more.


I do have a question though: when adding components to a spell, does the bonus spellcraft aid in decreasing the casting time? Because it says:

To determine the casting time of a particular spell effect,
subtract your Spellcraft modifier from the spell effect’s DC
and then consult Table 2–3: Casting Times.

 

[ValhallaGH]

However, i don't think that tinkering is going to [be] intuitive or fast anytime soon.

The same was initially true for the D&D spell slot system with most of my group, including myself. Since you picked up the product you obviously are willing to go other places with the game than just the core set.

One quick point. I noticed that you were adding your Int to your Spellcraft checks. If you're using the as written Spellcaster class then you should be adding your Charisma to such checks. This would also allow your character to specialize furter in his Cha score, at the cost of some skill points.