AoO and Cleave?

[Baron Von StarBlade]

Killing Shaft with an AoO

It is inherently unfair that Shaft has his guard up, and can be swung at by swinging "through" Idiot , but he can't be swung at if Idiot isn't there. Somehow, Idiot's presence makes swinging at Shaft EASIER than it normally would be. And this is dumb.

I think this is a moot arguement. How is an AoO any different from a normal attack? It isn't like Shaft lowers his guard during my attack action. When I drop Idiot during my normal attack Shaft is in the same situation; he has his guard up. He is just unlucky to be standing next to a downed ally. Also it isn't a guaranteed hit when you cleave through, you do have to make the roll to hit the next target, hence Shaft does have his guard up.
I look at it this way, the Cleaver puts so much strength and control into his attacks that when he drops an opponent he can continue that motion into another target, regardless of whether they were defending against it or not. With Great Cleave he has mastery over this techinique and can do it however many times it presents itself.

 

[Finn E. Theodorsen]

um ... pardon the ignorance but ... WHAT????

Has it really been that long since the big
Whirlwind/Great Cleave/Snails Discussion??

If effect you drop a bucket of snails in
your area and kill them all with a whirlwind
attack. This gives you one cleave (due to
Great Cleave) off each kill, which you all
direct at your REAL opponent, giving you
some 100 free attacks (depending on bucket-
size). Blind Kobolds all around would do as
well, or even summoned animals. Works without
Whirlwind too as long as these provoke AoO
on you (though only up to your AoO limit)



//Finn

 

[Negative Zero]

ah ... my bad. i stopped reading that thread after awhile. likely beffore it got to that point thanks

~NegZ

 

[Arcanus]

has the sage ruled on this at all?

is there a written ruling on this at all?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Re: Killing Shaft with an AoO

I think this is a moot arguement. How is an AoO any different from a normal attack? It isn't like Shaft lowers his guard during my attack action. When I drop Idiot during my normal attack Shaft is in the same situation; he has his guard up. He is just unlucky to be standing next to a downed ally. Also it isn't a guaranteed hit when you cleave through, you do have to make the roll to hit the next target, hence Shaft does have his guard up.

There is a subtle but very important difference.

Shaft may not gain any benefit from Idiot if an Ogre drops Idiot with one shot and then Cleaves, but Shaft has not been put at any disadvatage either.

An AoO is quite different. Idiots action provokes an extra out of sequence attack that Shaft would not suffer if Idiot were not there.

Consider a situation where Shaft is "2 hits from death", Idiot is "1 hit from death" and the Ogre is "2 hits from death".

Example 1:
Shaft and Idiot blunder into an Ogre.
Shaft attacks, hits Ogre.
Idiots attempts to flee.
Ogre his Idiot with AoO, then hits Shaft.
Ogre attacks Shaft and hits.
Shaft is now dead.

Example 2:
Shaft alone blunders into an Ogre.
Shaft attacks, hits Ogre.
Ogre attacks, hits Shaft.
Shaft attacks, hits Ogre.
Ogre is now dead.

Example 3:
Shaft and Idiot blunder into an Ogre.
Shaft attacks, hits Ogre.
Idiots does nothing.
Ogre attacks Idiot. Kills Idiot. Then hits Shaft.
Shaft attacks, hits Ogre.
Ogre is now dead.

In the first example, the action of Idiot actually directly Shaft to be killed. As you can see, contrary to your suggestion, example 3 is not the same as example 1.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

has the sage ruled on this at all?

is there a written ruling on this at all?

Not that I know of.

There is a general consensus on these boards on what the rules as written say on the matter: you may indeed use Cleave with an AoO.

The controversy is whether that is the best way to play or whether the rules as written contradict "common sense" in this case.