AoO and Cleave
- Thread starter Eye Tyrant
- Start date
FireLance
Legend
As several people have mentioned, there's nothing in the rules to stop you from Cleaving off an AOO. I'm one of the people who don't like it though. To me, an AOO occurs when someone has dropped his guard in combat, but that shouldn't make anyone else more vulnerable to an attack.
I like to use the invisible dire lemming example to illustrate this. Let's say there are two fighters, A and B, facing each other in combat. B has Combat Reflexes and Great Cleave, and has true seeing cast on him. Someone (maybe an ally of B) suddenly releases a pack of invisible dire lemmings (like dire rats, but more suicidal) and they run behind B. As they do so, they provoke AOOs for movement from him. B gets several attacks on the dire lemmings because of Combat Reflexes, and he easily kills each with one blow and Cleaves into A. The dire lemmings don't distract A because he can't see them. As far as A is concerned, he's keeping a wary eye on B, and defending himself normally against him. However, B suddenly erupts into a flurry of motion, landing several solid blows on A.
Yes, it's a pretty contrived scenario, but I hope it serves to illustrate why I don't think Cleaving off an AOO should work.
I like to use the invisible dire lemming example to illustrate this. Let's say there are two fighters, A and B, facing each other in combat. B has Combat Reflexes and Great Cleave, and has true seeing cast on him. Someone (maybe an ally of B) suddenly releases a pack of invisible dire lemmings (like dire rats, but more suicidal) and they run behind B. As they do so, they provoke AOOs for movement from him. B gets several attacks on the dire lemmings because of Combat Reflexes, and he easily kills each with one blow and Cleaves into A. The dire lemmings don't distract A because he can't see them. As far as A is concerned, he's keeping a wary eye on B, and defending himself normally against him. However, B suddenly erupts into a flurry of motion, landing several solid blows on A.
Yes, it's a pretty contrived scenario, but I hope it serves to illustrate why I don't think Cleaving off an AOO should work.
Infiniti2000
First Post
That's a good point. Although this argument is not based on rules, cleave is commonly considered a weak feat, particularly at higher levels, so allowing cleave off an AoO is clearly not unbalancing.Crothian said:Having allowed cleave to be used off of AoO for 5 years I have yet to see a problem with it. Sometimes its nice to play with the rules and watch them work
Crothian
First Post
Infiniti2000 said:That's a good point. Although this argument is not based on rules, cleave is commonly considered a weak feat, particularly at higher levels, so allowing cleave off an AoO is clearly not unbalancing.
REally? Great Cleave I've seen people call weak, but Cleave has been usefull in our game into high level. Even my high level game with 25th level characters cleave is still useful. But that might be becasue I don't always throw foes of equal strength at them, 99.99999% of the world is weaker then them so most of the time they fight weaker opponets.
Infiniti2000
First Post
Well, it's certainly not useful, but considering other choices for feats at higher levels, it's relatively weak. At higher levels, bad guys will not frequently group around the fighter. It's great flavor though and I even picked it up for my cleric.
The fact is, though, that for a cleave to occur off an AoO would be extremely rare.
The fact is, though, that for a cleave to occur off an AoO would be extremely rare.
Bayonet_Chris
First Post
AoO
I'm sure taking cleave on an attack of opportunity happens a lot, but I don't think it's right. An attack of opportunity is essentially a free action, and it's a bad precedent to allow chaining free actions.
Attacks of opportunity should only apply to the creature that provoked it.
I'm sure taking cleave on an attack of opportunity happens a lot, but I don't think it's right. An attack of opportunity is essentially a free action, and it's a bad precedent to allow chaining free actions.
Attacks of opportunity should only apply to the creature that provoked it.
FireLance
Legend
Oh, I'm sure it works fine and it isn't unbalanced as a rule. Cleaving off an AOO just jars with my sense of "fairness".Crothian said:Having allowed cleave to be used off of AoO for 5 years I have yet to see a problem with it. Sometimes its nice to play with the rules and watch them work
HeapThaumaturgist
First Post
Cleave is actually where my Combat Cleric gets most of his staying power.
Raged, Bull's Strengthened, Strength Domaining, Smiting he can put out tremendous damage with a huge Attack Bonus. But the only way I can actually do much is using that huge attack bonus and damage to blow away two foes at the time.
I actually take horrible advantage of the fact that, with Divine Vigor on, I can move 50' per round and usually get directly into the midst of badguys before they respond ... then wait for one to provoke, take an AoO, and splatter two of them. I'd say that maybe a full 1/3 of my Cleaves are off of AoOs that I conciously tried to provoke. Waiting for the Fighter to trip a foe, then standing on the other side in such a way that if he stands he'll provoke and I can whip two enemies with the ole' greatclub.
It actually makes up for the abysmal luck I seem to have with dice. I ended the session before last with 4 or 5 rolls in a row 3 or below, and pretty much went from 30hp to 7hp via clumsiness.
--fje
Raged, Bull's Strengthened, Strength Domaining, Smiting he can put out tremendous damage with a huge Attack Bonus. But the only way I can actually do much is using that huge attack bonus and damage to blow away two foes at the time.
I actually take horrible advantage of the fact that, with Divine Vigor on, I can move 50' per round and usually get directly into the midst of badguys before they respond ... then wait for one to provoke, take an AoO, and splatter two of them. I'd say that maybe a full 1/3 of my Cleaves are off of AoOs that I conciously tried to provoke. Waiting for the Fighter to trip a foe, then standing on the other side in such a way that if he stands he'll provoke and I can whip two enemies with the ole' greatclub.
It actually makes up for the abysmal luck I seem to have with dice. I ended the session before last with 4 or 5 rolls in a row 3 or below, and pretty much went from 30hp to 7hp via clumsiness.
--fje
