AoO Q - Cat vs. Commoner

[GwydapLlew]

I don't know how this works. If a cat is in an adjacent square to the commoner, what does it need to do to make an attack? Can it take a 5-ft. step in order to make an attack? It could stay in the square if the attack dropped the commoner below 0 hp, thereby rendering him helpless.

It has to enter the square to make the attack. Since it cannot end its turn in the same square as something Small-sized or larger (p. 149, PHB), it has to return to the square it left (or, if that is illegal, the nearest empty square) (p. 148, PHB).

You can't make a 5-ft. step in difficult terrain, can you?

Precisely. You can move 5', but it's not considered protected for the purpose of AoO.

IMO, a Tiny creature cannot enter and stay in the same square as that of a Medium creature. Therefore, any Tiny creature would have to spend movement to enter the square (provokes AoO) and then be forced to return to its original square after the attack is completed. Likewise, IMO, a 5' adjustment cannot be used to enter the square, because the Tiny creature would be attempting an illegal move ('ending its move in an occupied square').

My argument about difficult terrain is a follow-up argument if the 'illegal move' is not considered as sufficient to prevent it from happening.

 

[GwydapLlew]

This doesn't seem right to me. The special rule for "very small creatures" specifically says they can move "into or through". If they couldn't end their movement in the same square, the text would just say "through", right?

So, a cat can attack a human, but only if it has the Spring Attack feat...?

IanB: The only rules I can find regarding 'very small creatures' states that if they are three size categories smaller or larger, they can move freely through an occupied square. It says nothing about ending movement there. (PHB, p. 148)

Len: That's not what I'm saying at all. The rules for a creature with 0 reach states the following:

Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can't reach into adjacent squares. They myst enter an opponent's square to attack in melee.

This gives them the ability to move into a square to make the attack, much like the grapple rules allow a grappler to enter the square of someone they have engaged in a grapple.

It does not say that they can end their movement in the square, and the paragraph prior to that states that they can only inhabit squares with Tiny, Dimunitive, or Fine creatures. This (to me) implies that they cannot end the turn in the same square as their Medium opponent. Since they cannot end the turn in the same square, they are forced to return to their original square after the attack.

 

[Baelzabubba]

down kitty

Tiny creatures may enter another square using thier 5' step. However, similar to engaging in a grapple, if they do not kill or otherwise render thier foe helpless, they are ejected back into the square they started in.

As far as the 5' step provoking, it is NOT the "movement" that provokes (as in leaving a threatened square). But, ENTERING another's square inherently does provoke. An entirely different qualifier.

The real question here is ... Is the commoner armed?

 

[GwydapLlew]

The real question here is ... Is the commoner armed?

*grins* In this case, with a pitchfork. Nonproficient at that. If he weren't, it wouldn't matter whether the cat provoked an AoO or not, since he couldn't threaten.

 

[Infiniti2000]

This gives them the ability to move into a square to make the attack, much like the grapple rules allow a grappler to enter the square of someone they have engaged in a grapple.

Exactly. It's a special movement rule for Tiny creatures. It's not a special 5ft-step rule, thus the Tiny creature cannot use a 5ft-step to move into another creature's square to attack it. The Tiny creature must take a move action, even if it's only 5ft, to enter someone's square.

There's no contradiction in the rules, you're just applying the 5ft-step rule where it's not applicable.

 

[frankthedm]

Exactly. It's a special movement rule for Tiny creatures. It's not a special 5ft-step rule, thus the Tiny creature cannot use a 5ft-step to move into another creature's square to attack it. The Tiny creature must take a move action, even if it's only 5ft, to enter someone's square.

There's no contradiction in the rules, you're just applying the 5ft-step rule where it's not applicable.

Actually the tiny creature could use the 5' adjustment to enter the foes square. It just does not help stop the AoO from the creatures' whose space they enter. Others who threatened the tiny bugger however would be denied thier AoOs. Also the way the rules read, they do seem compliant to the tiny creature remaining in opponent's square.

Moving through a Square
Friend: You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn’t provide you with cover.
Opponent: You can’t move through a square occupied by an opponent, unless the opponent is helpless. You can move through a square occupied by a helpless opponent without penalty. (Some creatures, particularly very large ones, may present an obstacle even when helpless. In such cases, each square you move through counts as 2 squares.)
Ending Your Movement: You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.
Overrun: During your movement or as part of a charge, you can attempt to move through a square occupied by an opponent.
Tumbling: A trained character can attempt to tumble through a square occupied by an opponent (see the Tumble skill).
Very Small Creature: A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.
Square Occupied by Creature Three Sizes Larger or Smaller: Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than it is.
A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is.
Designated Exceptions: Some creatures break the above rules. A creature that completely fills the squares it occupies cannot be moved past, even with the Tumble skill or similar special abilities.

BIG AND LITTLE CREATURES IN COMBAT
Creatures smaller than Small or larger than Medium have special rules relating to position.
Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine Creatures: Very small creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2-1/2 feet across, so four can fit into a single square. Twenty-five Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square. Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can’t reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent’s square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent . You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can’t flank an enemy.

 

[AbeTheGnome]

i'm just curious... has this situation actually come up in someone's game? if not... hell, even if so, you're all a bunch of very bored posters.

 

[Felnar]

You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally

could this line support ending the move in the opponents space?

 

[frankthedm]

i'm just curious... has this situation actually come up in someone's game? if not... hell, even if so, you're all a bunch of very bored posters.

There are enough tiny creatures in the rule-set so that knowing the ins and outs of tiny critters movement can matter. Especially since the Strige, D&D's iconic tiny monster damages Constitution.

Kitty 5' adjusts [one AoO from victim] < > Kitty moves [3 AoOs, 1 per customer]

 

[MarkB]

i'm just curious... has this situation actually come up in someone's game? if not... hell, even if so, you're all a bunch of very bored posters.

Clearly spoken by someone who's never owned a Bag of Tricks, Gray.

Those little critters don't last long in combat, but if they do survive long enough to get into melee, they can provide a useful distraction.

For what it's worth, I agree with Frank - entering an opponent's square provokes an AoO all on its own, aside from any AoOs for movement.

Which brings up another question - if a tiny creature moves, say, 10 feet to enter the square of an opponent with Combat Reflexes, does the opponent get to make two AoOs?