AoO Q - Cat vs. Commoner

[Klaus]

So, all Tiny creatures have Spring Attack? No, definitely not. I don't see what rules even remotely support that position.

Just re-read the section on Big and Small Creatures in Combat, and I must stand corrected. The Tiny cat enters the commoner's square to attack it. But the commoner can still attack it, even if it's in his own square.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If another creature (three or more sizes larger) enters the square occupied by the Tiny cat, does the cat get an attack of opportunity? It would seem so even though the cat does not threaten the squares around it, it does still threaten the square it occupies.

But where is the AoO provoked? In the square you're entering the occupied square from, or in the occupied square?

Once you're in the occupied square, you can't enter it... so the act of entering the occupied square is undertaken in the adjacent square (which the cat doesn't threaten), isn't it?

-Hyp.

 

[Klaus]

I thought "leaving" a threatened square provoked an AoO. If so, the offending action takes place in the adjacent square, which the cat doesn't threaten.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Not only is this actually coming up in a game, but you can watch it here:

http://www.circvsmaximvs.com/showthread.php?t=15887

The move silent ranks of the cat were not useful, as I believe the fight starts with the premise that the farmer tried to give his cat a bath...

We can? Nope, we can't. Care to open it up to the public?

 

[frankthedm]

So far, everything you've quoted supports the stance that movement is allowed (with the special exception for Tiny creatures), but nothing at all supports a 5ft-step.

You will need to show what prohibits the 5' step.

 

[BASHMAN]

It seems pretty obvious to me, that you simply cannot take a "freebie" 5 foot step into an enemy's square. You may need to make a 5' move to attack the commoner, but entering someone's square incurs and AOO. It'd be wise for all creatures tiny or smaller to have ranks in tumble or Spring Attack.

 

[ElectricDragon]

They must enter an opponent’s square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent.

This says entering an occupied square provokes an attack of opportunity not the normal leaving a threatened square. Entering the square is the provoke, not leaving a threatened square. This is another special case of attacks of opportunity; the only one allowed to Tiny or smaller creatures. I don't see a problem with allowing Tiny or smaller creatures to defend their own space. If a bigger creature moves into the Tiny creature's space, the Tiny creature can now attack without provoking an attack of opportunity so why can it not defend its territory?

Ciao
Dave

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

You will need to show what prohibits the 5' step.

Ditto. I don't see anything that prohibits the 5' step. The consequences of the 5' step are altered because of the size of the creature, but it can be a 5' step nonetheless.

Regarding the cat remaining in the space: It has always been my understanding of the size rules that it allows creatures to occupy the same space, essentially because (as in this case) neither the cat nor commoner has their movement impaired as a result. The normal rule is adjusted to appropriately reflect prefectly acceptible physical possibilities. Now, whether you think the cat can stay in the space or not, it should not prevent it from entering EVEN if it is known that at the end of the turn the cat will be "bumped" back out because it INTENDS to choose not to move back out.

The rules specifically enable it to enter the space. This permission is NOT concerning itself with what might happen later when it does so. You don't want to start preventing characters from doing things based on what MIGHT happen as a result. Let them do what they are allowed to do - THEN apply the consequences. If what they do puts them in an illegal position then the proper course is to make the adjustments/apply penalties AFTER that position is attained.