Appeal of the defender?

[Starbuck_II]

Ugh, tons and tons of Paladin NPCS were mowed down protecting my players. One Paladin was even sent to Hell protecting them...

During the Castle Ravenloft adventure they were in a corridor following a celestial who was leading them into a trap, when Bar-Lguras swoop down and start wrestling the adventurers. The Mage dimension doors away, and the rogue escape artists out of their grasp, but the NPC Paladin is teleported 2000 ft in the sky (will save...) and starts plummeting down to his doom. Being a paladin he had nothing that could possible save him.

Except for diplomacy. Since the Paladin witnessed his entire regiment get slaughtered by Strahd, he tried to use diplomacy to make a pact with the Bar-Lgura (In game reason: The Paladin decides that losing his status is worth being able to cleanse the land of evil/ Out of game reason: The group would suffer TPK without a defender).

Anyway, the Paladin fails his diplomacy and slams into the ground taking 1,990d6 damage and is sent straight to Hell where he is tortured for all eternity for bargaining with Demons.

Basically this only solidified the fact that defenders are eternal losers to my players.

a. 200d6 is max falling damage: so why add insult to injury and houserule that Pally takes more? Just seems mean.
And you can survive 200d6 at high levels (if roll low for damage). Plus, why didn't the Pally have a any good magic items: cape/boots of Flying or 1 use item of feather fall?

Gloombunny:

The title character in Naruto is frequently noted for his incredible endurance under severe beatings, refusal to give up especially when his friends are in danger, and powerful direct offense but somewhat clumsy sense of subtlety.

He's not all big and burly, though.

Naruto is a caster. Almost all the cast of Naruto is.
The show's character were originally wriiten as Wizards. Only changed to Ninja because it sold better.

Tenten, Rock Lee, and Gai are the only non-full casters (all there use a small degree of magic; the Chakra gates are true Taijutsu).

But you know, nothing wrong with a Cleric, psychic warrior, or gish acting as Defender role.
That is just their Gishy Way.

 

[Geek-Zilla]

I've always preferred to play the "meat shield" I've always thought playing a tank/defender is one of those roles that is easy to learn but hard to master. It's been awhile since I played 3E (took a break when 3.5 came out and went back to school...and graduating next week...w00t), but being a good defender is about positioning (i.e: setting up so you can get an AoO). From what I've read about 4E (still waiting for a demo in my area), I think WoTC has done a good job of refining the "keeping aggro" concept for the table top game with marking.

Now how to put a positive spin on playing a defender? That can be tough, even current MMOs like WoW have had to rework some of their mechanics to make playing a Protection spec'd Warrior "fun". Blizzards' research shows people like to do big damage and get the killing blow. I've played and raided as a Prot Warrior, and it's more about personal challenge rather than the big hit. I'd get upset if I wasn't at the top of the Damage Taken meters, or if I was having problems keeping aggro on a boss mob. But it's fun in a sense, because how MY fight would go against the mob, so would the fight for the rest of the raid.

Defenders, Tanks, Meat-Shields....whatever, is about setting the tone of the battle. With 4E, from what I've read about the playtest and demos, playing a Fighter or Paladin is going to be a very similar experience to tanking in a MMO. It's about positioning, setting the tone, and setting the pace of the fight. Again, something easy to learn, but it can be hard to master.

So what is the positive spin? Playing a defender (Fighter or Paladin) is no longer the class you'd have your friend's little kid brother play "because it's easy". It's become a class where you hope the person playing it has a observant tactical mind...like a chess player.

 

[Irda Ranger]

According to them, defenders are "dumb servants" and "meat shields" whose sole job is to get hurt/ be incapacitated so the wizards and assassins can bask in the limelight.

Can anyone help me put a positive spin on the defender for my players?

Hmm, it sounds to me like your players think Defenders are "suckers". That kind of non-appreciative attitude is hard to "cure" in a way that leaves the patient feeling warm and fuzzy.

Do your players like team sports or group activities? Personally, I've always appreciated that every member of the team is necessary to accomplish the goal, but then I have a personal background in working in teams. Children who grow up solely watching TV shows without certain role models or playing single-player video games and never relying on people might not learn these lessons.

I'm hardly a psychologist though, so that's just a gut instinct. The only thing I can think of is giving them a Defender NPC to control every now and then and making sure that guy gets a chance to shine in that combat. You're not "forcing" them to play a character they don't want to play, but you can ask them to play the NPC "just for this fight" and then give them some positive experiences with it. Let them be the hero that fight, and really save the other player's bacon.

It's important that the player gets the chance to save the others, because then (1) he'll have positive feelings for his accomplishments, and (2) he can be a champion for the Role to the other players. Later on let one of the other players run the Defender that fight.

Eventually they have to realize that "You know, we never would have been able to save the Princess without Sir Bob running interference with those Ogres. He really came through in the clutch for us."

Although honestly, right now, it sounds like they're not mature enough to appreciate help when they get it, so maybe they'll never learn this lesson. Maybe they just need to grow up.

 

[WhatGravitas]

Although honestly, right now, it sounds like they're not mature enough to appreciate help when they get it, so maybe they'll never learn this lesson. Maybe they just need to grow up.

Yeah, in my last game, there was a ToB crusader who simply said "don't geek the mage". Without him, the mage would have been killed two or three times. And was GRATEFUL! And the crusader player was happy with that.

So... just let them play without defender. Let's see what happens.

And let them fight against a small group WITH good defenders.

Cheers, LT.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Fighters in D&D are fun as hell - not for me as player, but as DM watching my players play them...
they only start sucking when you start using charm at those who forget to take will enhancing feats... but then they are still fun as hell for me as a DM

3rd edition was robust as long as you didn´t try to break it intentionally and as long as you didn´t let your gobbies always run around the fighter because there is a spare square on the battle map it worked fine... (no grid helps a lot in this regard)

But: having mechanical reasons not to run around defenders instead of only roleplaying reasons, then its a great improvement.

 

[Irda Ranger]

I've always preferred to play the "meat shield" I've always thought playing a tank/defender is one of those roles that is easy to learn but hard to master ... being a good defender is about positioning (i.e: setting up so you can get an AoO).

Absolutely. Both of my most recent characters (an Armiger and Hunter in an Iron Heroes campaign) would qualify as pretty Defender-ish, and there's a subtle art to using your powers to control the battlefield in such a way that maximizes what the group can do, rather than just what your character can do. Neither of my characters were the DPS champs (that would go either to the Berserker/Man-at-Arms or the Executioner, depending on the nature of our enemies in a given fight), but the battles would not have been won without my characters there.

Blizzards' research shows people like to do big damage and get the killing blow.

That's actually false. People like getting better at things that can be measured. I'll explain what I mean in a second.

I've played and raided as a Prot Warrior, and it's more about personal challenge rather than the big hit. I'd get upset if I wasn't at the top of the Damage Taken meters, or if I was having problems keeping aggro on a boss mob.

It sounds to me like WoW's real problem is that they don't know how to measure "assists." If the statistics accurately measured your ability to Defend and to Deflect, then you could be the best at that (rather than have to try being the best at damage outlay).

So what is the positive spin? Playing a defender (Fighter or Paladin) is no longer the class you'd have your friend's little kid brother play "because it's easy". It's become a class where you hope the person playing it has a observant tactical mind...like a chess player.

Heh, maybe the OP can try a little reverse psych. "You know what guys, you're right. You shouldn't play a Defender. I don't think any of you have a strong enough grasp on tactics or strategy to really know how to use them. I'll just save your butts for you, since I'm pretty sure you'll be dead meat without my help."

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

You know, there are lots of good fantasy books with badass "defenders" they could read about. (In fact, badass mages in RPGs are pretty rare. I think they're hard to write about, or something.)

 

[GSHamster]

It sounds to me like WoW's real problem is that they don't know how to measure "assists." If the statistics accurately measured your ability to Defend and to Deflect, then you could be the best at that (rather than have to try being the best at damage outlay).

It's a lot more complicated than that. The tank is generally considered to be the most prestigious postion in a raid. The high end raid guilds tend to give first priority on loot to the tanks.

People adore good tanks. They just prefer that someone else takes that role.

 

[Gloombunny]

Gloombunny:

Naruto is a caster. Almost all the cast of Naruto is.
The show's character were originally wriiten as Wizards. Only changed to Ninja because it sold better.

Tenten, Rock Lee, and Gai are the only non-full casters (all there use a small degree of magic; the Chakra gates are true Taijutsu).

But you know, nothing wrong with a Cleric, psychic warrior, or gish acting as Defender role.
That is just their Gishy Way.

I didn't say Naruto isn't a magic-using character, I said that his role in fights is similar to a defender in 4e. I don't know what "everyone in that show uses magic" has to do with that.

 

[Geek-Zilla]

It sounds to me like WoW's real problem is that they don't know how to measure "assists." If the statistics accurately measured your ability to Defend and to Deflect, then you could be the best at that (rather than have to try being the best at damage outlay).

No it's not a problem...I just decided to use the abridged version so as not to bore the heck out of non-WoW players. There are plenty of measurables and tracking in game for someone to evaluate how a raid member is performing their role. Damage Taken is just a quick a dirty snap-shot...a better example would be Threat Meter tracking, at least for a tank.

It's a lot more complicated than that. The tank is generally considered to be the most prestigious postion in a raid. The high end raid guilds tend to give first priority on loot to the tanks.

People adore good tanks. They just prefer that someone else takes that role.

Here Here!!! I can vouch for that....A Protection spec'd Warrior or a Holy Spec'd Priest are gold. If you do serious raid content and you play one of these classes, prepare to get plenty of invites for dungeons, raids, and guild membership.