Appeal of the defender?

[Gloombunny]

It's a lot more complicated than that. The tank is generally considered to be the most prestigious postion in a raid. The high end raid guilds tend to give first priority on loot to the tanks.

People adore good tanks. They just prefer that someone else takes that role.

I think a lot of that adoration has to do with how rare good tanks are. And the reason they're rare is that few people want to play tanks.

Luckily, 4e defenders are not WoW tanks. I feel like a broken record saying this over and over, but 4e fighters are a strong damage-dealing class. They are not going to be consistently overshadowed by strikers. (Sometimes the strikers will do more, and sometimes the fighter wil do more, depending on what you're fighting and such.)

 

[katahn]

Yes, all the Naruto characters are "casters" but in 4e that simply indicates a power source (arcane or divine) and not how it is used. Consider what we know already...

Arcane Controller: Wizard (PHB)
Arcane Defender: Swordmage (Forgotten Realms CS)
Arcane Leader: Bard (PHB2?)
Arcane Striker: Warlock (PHB)

All four use magic (arcane) but in very different ways. So yeah, Naruto could be a defender (although honestly, he's more strikerish anyway).

 

[nogray]

I'm not always the best with rules, but aren't there a few problems with the example demise of the paladin?

... when Bar-Lguras swoop down and start wrestling the adventurers. The Mage dimension doors away, and the rogue escape artists out of their grasp...

I would think that the rogue's ability to escape artist out would be at least moderately close to the paladin's ability to out-grapple a bar-lgura. The rogue's escape artist check is probably only 3-4 points higher than the paladin's grapple check, assuming equal level and max skill points from the rogue.

...but the NPC Paladin is teleported 2000 ft in the sky (will save...)

Assuming you mean that the Bar-lgura teleported with the paladin, there is some non-standard stuff going on.

The Bar-lgura can only teleport itself and up to 50 lbs of objects--it can't carry passengers.
Teleport (the spell-basis for the Bar-lgura's teleprt ability) only allows the transport of willing targets. I'd be reasonably certain that the paladin was not willing. The Teleport spell mentions a saving throw for items (that the 'porter is trying to "steal" with the teleport), not for unwilling passengers.
Creatures transported by teleportation (like all conjuration effects) must arrive in a location capable of supporting it. No instant-falling.

...Except for diplomacy. Since the Paladin witnessed his entire regiment get slaughtered by Strahd, he tried to use diplomacy to make a pact with the Bar-Lgura (In game reason: The Paladin decides that losing his status is worth being able to cleanse the land of evil/ Out of game reason: The group would suffer TPK without a defender).

I would be hard-pressed to think of any paladin that would so easily bargain away their status, but then, the paladin should never have been put into that position.

Anyway, the Paladin fails his diplomacy and slams into the ground taking 1,990d6 damage

(Someone already caught this, but the typo they made bears correcting) Falling damage is capped at 20d6. That is somewhat more survivable.

and is sent straight to Hell where he is tortured for all eternity for bargaining with Demons.

I hope you didn't describe this, as the players should never have known this; it seems like either an empty point or hyperbole, to me.

(Editted to add) On the more general topic, I find defenders quite entertaining, and the 4e material definitely makes it seem more viable than previous editions. I might recommend that you suspend the addition of NPC defenders, though. I think you are reinforcing the negative opinions of the party by including them, and they are not learning that the role is, if not necessary, at least extremely useful. I would also recommend against changing the encounters. Certain encounters may be more difficult, but that is often true for non-standard parties. It's the nature of the tactical part of the game.

 

[jackston2]

So yeah, Naruto could be a defender (although honestly, he's more strikerish anyway).

Gah!!!! Strikers everywhere!!!

I've never seen Berserk, but is he an actual defender (and not a striker). Does he... defend?

 

[DandD]

Gah!!!! Strikers everywhere!!!

I've never seen Berserk, but is he an actual defender (and not a striker). Does he... defend?

Yeah, Guts does. When fighting against the 100 mercenaries helping Casca (that's how I think it's spelled in english, right?), when slaughtering the trolls in Innock and buying time for Schielke, and when doing a massacre at the tapashaz, or those demon-infested mutants in Vuritanis. He just happens to cleave alot... Really really a lot.

 

[Cirex]

That kind of "solo" characters are hard to set. Gatsu is a defender/striker, to say so.

Boromir is a nice example of glorious defender.

 

[jackston2]

I'm not always the best with rules, but aren't there a few problems with the example demise of the paladin?I would think that the rogue's ability to escape artist out would be at least moderately close to the paladin's ability to out-grapple a bar-lgura.

The Paladin suffered from Multi-Ability-Disorder, or whatever it's called (basically being forced to spread its stats across STR, CON, WIS, and CHA, with decent DEX), so it's grapple suffered. Whereas the rogue has high dex and escape artist skill ranks.

The Bar-lgura can only teleport itself and up to 50 lbs of objects--it can't carry passengers.

The Bar-Igura has a special power called "abduct" I think, which let's it steal away victims.

The Ravenloft book actually said that the Bar-Igura's combat tactic is to teleport themselves and their victims 2,000 feet into the air.

Although, I never knew that damage is capped at 200d6. I only remembered that you take 1d6 damage after the first 10'. 200 damage alone is enough to be lethal, though.

I hope you didn't describe this, as the players should never have known this; it seems like either an empty point or hyperbole, to me.

This is just a DM play style of mine (cinematic). I usually begin the game with a scene that the players would not be able to see, (like an explorer unearthing an artifact/ a stranger who is murdered, etc) and I let players watch villians yell at their henchmen and such.

 

[Dunamin]

Assuming you mean that the Bar-lgura teleported with the paladin, there is some non-standard stuff going on.

The Bar-lgura can only teleport itself and up to 50 lbs of objects--it can't carry passengers.
Teleport (the spell-basis for the Bar-lgura's teleprt ability) only allows the transport of willing targets. I'd be reasonably certain that the paladin was not willing. The Teleport spell mentions a saving throw for items (that the 'porter is trying to "steal" with the teleport), not for unwilling passengers.

That's the main characteristic of the bar-lgura. It can "abduct" people by teleporting them along against their will - even though the spell can't do that.

 

[Wiman]

Another problem may be that when you give the players NPC's you use them as the focal point for the punishment that occurs due to bonehead (parden the expression - I'm speaking of all players not just yours) moves by players. I understand that you want to set a game that is fun for your players but having played defender types for 20 odd years now, I would say the first time someone screwed with me...(especially if I was a NPC) I would go opps when the brute made a run to go by me....you what me to take these grenades and run up to that Tiger tank so you don't get run over mage...not gonna happen man.

IMO your players consider defenders as stupid meatshields and servents because that is how you have played them as NPC's, I would definately make them part of a "wakeup" encounter (Six soldiers trained to be "caster killers" and to use teamwork) as long as you run them to a high standard your player's should at least respect them....they won't play them (for the same reason I always play a defender and never a mage).

For the record I don't think a defender is required to run a 4e adventure, but not having one will limit the DM's options as to how to plan encounters - maybe recruit someone's little brother....thus the servent telecast will remain firmly in place....for a defender character.

 

[DandD]

That kind of "solo" characters are hard to set. Gatsu is a defender/striker, to say so.

Well, he's more of a defender than a striker, as he does take damage. Also, after the incident at St. Albion, he's once again in a adventuring party, with two pixie healers, a midget thief, a smug scoundrel, a crazy bitch, a pubertaire witch and a scared babysitter (who wants to learn sorcery from the witch).
If one envisions a martial defender with a greatsword, Guts should be their most immeadiate role-model. Although Guts uses a immense greatsword that couldn't really be swung at all, and everybody says that too.