Appeal of the defender?
- Thread starter jackston2
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Ximenes088
First Post
In 4e, Defenders look like they're going to be doing at least as much single-target damage as the wizards, if not more. They'll also usually be the last ones down unless the party's about to die, because if your enemies are tough enough to take out your front line, they're certainly tough enough to chew the rest of the party to pieces.
As for Justicars and Stormwardens, I don't see any issues. They're prestige paths for two completely different purposes. You can't put a hide-armored Stormwarden in the front lines and expect him to cope with paragon-level brutes, and you can't rely on a paladin-based Justicar to shred everything around him. The Stormwarden's abilities are minimally useful for a defender, whereas the ability to take an enemy's area-effect attack and move the entire thing onto him and him alone is golden. Note the wording- the power eliminates _all_ other targets of the effect and moves it all onto the paladin. Since the paladin is extremely likely to have at least one shot of his Lay On Hands left, he can then minor-action heal himself afterwards and be much more likely to remain standing.
As for Justicars and Stormwardens, I don't see any issues. They're prestige paths for two completely different purposes. You can't put a hide-armored Stormwarden in the front lines and expect him to cope with paragon-level brutes, and you can't rely on a paladin-based Justicar to shred everything around him. The Stormwarden's abilities are minimally useful for a defender, whereas the ability to take an enemy's area-effect attack and move the entire thing onto him and him alone is golden. Note the wording- the power eliminates _all_ other targets of the effect and moves it all onto the paladin. Since the paladin is extremely likely to have at least one shot of his Lay On Hands left, he can then minor-action heal himself afterwards and be much more likely to remain standing.
Defenders are some of the best/most reliable crowd control, a defender can lock down an area making it encounters significantly easier.
The players that like to count their kills will probably not enjoy defenders, however those who enjoy controlling the flow of battle, and the tactical positioning of themselves will find defenders a very rewarding and fun role to play. Defenders still do solid damage, a little less then an striker, but they hold up better, and get more opportunities to mess up the enemy.
Even at first level the fighter moves enemies around, forcing them into clusters for scorching burst, or separating monsters that benefit from being near each other. in some ways they hold similarities with the warlord (directing movement ect) but while the warlord makes your party better, the fighter makes their party worse.
The paladin is slightly different, he seems to pretty much be single target tank, he grabs a guy and duels that guy, however he has some party benefit abilities so he helps via heals/temp HP for his party while he holds one guy on himself.
Wizards blow some things up, they are more blastery (not a word, w/e) then they were, which is good because spells like glitterdust can simply end encounters, which isn't so much fun for everyone else.
Some players feel that the number of things they kill is their total worth, while others realize that just doing damage and not hampering the opponents leaves you dead in tactical situations (ie the monster is smart enough to ignore the guys in full plate, and kill the guys in cloth/leather.)
The players that like to count their kills will probably not enjoy defenders, however those who enjoy controlling the flow of battle, and the tactical positioning of themselves will find defenders a very rewarding and fun role to play. Defenders still do solid damage, a little less then an striker, but they hold up better, and get more opportunities to mess up the enemy.
Even at first level the fighter moves enemies around, forcing them into clusters for scorching burst, or separating monsters that benefit from being near each other. in some ways they hold similarities with the warlord (directing movement ect) but while the warlord makes your party better, the fighter makes their party worse.
The paladin is slightly different, he seems to pretty much be single target tank, he grabs a guy and duels that guy, however he has some party benefit abilities so he helps via heals/temp HP for his party while he holds one guy on himself.
Wizards blow some things up, they are more blastery (not a word, w/e) then they were, which is good because spells like glitterdust can simply end encounters, which isn't so much fun for everyone else.
Some players feel that the number of things they kill is their total worth, while others realize that just doing damage and not hampering the opponents leaves you dead in tactical situations (ie the monster is smart enough to ignore the guys in full plate, and kill the guys in cloth/leather.)
Fiendish Dire Weasel said:
Ugh, tons and tons of Paladin NPCS were mowed down protecting my players. One Paladin was even sent to Hell protecting them...
During the Castle Ravenloft adventure they were in a corridor following a celestial who was leading them into a trap, when Bar-Lguras swoop down and start wrestling the adventurers. The Mage dimension doors away, and the rogue escape artists out of their grasp, but the NPC Paladin is teleported 2000 ft in the sky (will save...) and starts plummeting down to his doom. Being a paladin he had nothing that could possible save him.
Except for diplomacy. Since the Paladin witnessed his entire regiment get slaughtered by Strahd, he tried to use diplomacy to make a pact with the Bar-Lgura (In game reason: The Paladin decides that losing his status is worth being able to cleanse the land of evil/ Out of game reason: The group would suffer TPK without a defender).
Anyway, the Paladin fails his diplomacy and slams into the ground taking 1,990d6 damage and is sent straight to Hell where he is tortured for all eternity for bargaining with Demons.
Basically this only solidified the fact that defenders are eternal losers to my players.
Hammerhead
Explorer
The appeal of the defender: standing right up to the big bad, yelling "Bring it on!" Another probably puts it better though 
.
"Just remember what ol' Jack Burton does when the earth quakes, the poison arrows fall from the sky, and the pillars of Heaven shake. Yeah, Jack Burton just looks that big old storm right in the eye and says, "Give me your best shot. I can take it."
. "Just remember what ol' Jack Burton does when the earth quakes, the poison arrows fall from the sky, and the pillars of Heaven shake. Yeah, Jack Burton just looks that big old storm right in the eye and says, "Give me your best shot. I can take it."
I think you just have to have the right frame of mind. If you have a player who can appreciate this, you have a good defender:
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
While I draw breath, they shall not perish.
So long as they live, our enemies will fall.
I am defender, protector, guardian.
I am a Paladin.
- Cathela, <The Eleventh Hour>
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
While I draw breath, they shall not perish.
So long as they live, our enemies will fall.
I am defender, protector, guardian.
I am a Paladin.
- Cathela, <The Eleventh Hour>
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