Applying the Half-Fiend Template to Undead Creatures

[Ghostmoon]

Hello,

My question is specifically regarding what happens to the creature's Constitution score? As with all the Undead, it does not have one. However, when the template is applied, it switches the type of monster from Undead to Outsider.

In the beginning of the Monster Manual (pg 10), it notes that creatures with no body or metabolism has no Constitution score. However, it also notes that any living creature has a Constitution score of at least 1.

So, I guess my question is: Is it mechanically correct to have an Outsider with no Constitution score?

Thanks!
Ghostmoon

 

[CRGreathouse]

It is never correct to give undead a Constitution score. They're not "living creatures", BTW.

Remember the order of templates - if you take an undead creature and then add half-fiend to it, that means that a powerful fiend *mated* with an undead creature. Since that's (clearly) impossible, you can't add them in that order. You could have a half-fiend become undead (lich, etc.), though.

 

[Ghostmoon]

Half-Fiendish Undead

Thanks for the response. However, from a game mechanics there is nothing incorrect in adding a Half-Fiend template to an Undead creature (e.g. Half-Fiendish Ghoul). As noted in SRD:

Half-Fiend

"Half-fiend" is a template that can be added to any corporeal creature (referred to hereafter as the "base creature"). The creature's type changes to "outsider." It uses all the base creature's statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Also, I don't believe a half-fiend can become a Lich, as the base creature needs to be a humanoid creature. As noted above, the creature's type switches to outsider when you apply the half-fiend template.

Thanks!
Ghostmoon

 

[CRGreathouse]

I take back the lich (just an off-the-top-of-my-head undead template), but I still wouldn't allow the half-fiend template to be added to any creature without the ability to crossbreed with fiends.

 

[Devon]

How about just adding the Fiendish template to the undead creature? If you simply make it a ghoul from the Infernal/Abyssal planes, then there's no conflict. It still gets some resistances, and an SR--it just doesn't have those fiendish spell-like abilities.

"Fiendish" is a template that can be added to any corporeal creature of nongood alignment (referred to hereafter as the "base creature"). Beasts or animals with this template become magical beasts, but otherwise the creature type is unchanged.

Devon

 

[CRGreathouse]

How about just adding the Fiendish template to the undead creature? If you simply make it a ghoul from the Infernal/Abyssal planes, then there's no conflict. It still gets some resistances, and an SR--it just doesn't have those fiendish spell-like abilities.

Fiendish undead are just fine - in fact, I have some posted in the Rogue's Gallery right now.

 

[Wippit Guud]

So, rather than go with the DMG, which says any corporeal creature, we're removing, undead, constructs, oozes (which split to reproduce) and possibly plants.

*rips up half-field iron golem*

What's the point of saying 'any corporeal creature' if it's not any corporeal creature?

 

[CRGreathouse]

I don't know why they wrote it that way, since it describes it such that it's impossible for non-reporducing beings to have it.

In some cases it works, when the creature was born and then became undead, so I'm not sure exactly how to describe it. "Any corporeal creature that can produce offspring, or could have produced offspring at some point in its life"? *shrug*

Obviously, you're free to do as you please in your own world, but I'm not sure how you could describe a half-fiend iron golem. (A fiendish iron golem, by contrast, would be wicked. )

 

[Wippit Guud]

I always figured, if you apply a half-fiend template to a non-reproducing creature, you're pretty much saying it's a possessed creature... makes sacred exrcist fun, not that anyone takes it.

 

[Ghostmoon]

Go Lis! Way to cite precedent!

Hello,

I seem to have found an answer of sorts. I cross-posted this question on the WoTC Boards and an astute poster pointed me toward Dragon 291, specifically the section on Death Knights (pg 90).

One of the Death Knights, who become Undead when the Death Knight template is added, in the article received the half-fiend template (via demonic grafts and infusions). It appears its type remains "Undead".

I am not sure if this is the absolutely correct answer, but it is the simplest to apply. I can only guess that the case would be similar if applied to constructs (i.e. the type remains "Construct" as opposed to switching to "Outsider")

Thanks all!

Post on WotC Board: http://boards.wizards.com/rpg/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=118;t=001361