Arcane Archer busted?

mkletch said:

[...]Since the two abilities (seeker and phase arrow) use the same "target known to you within range" verbiage, it is clear that they both find their target. Seeker goes around walls, phase goes through them.
The descriptions are similar, but not the same.

The description of Phase Arrow specifies that it travels in a straight line. If you point your bow in the wrong direction, the arrow can't turn in midair to correct your aim, and therefore you automatically miss.

A Seeker Arrow is different because it does turn in midair. For this one, it doesn't matter if you point your bow straight up, because the arrow curves to point itself the right way.
 

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AuraSeer said:
The descriptions are similar, but not the same.

The description of Phase Arrow specifies that it travels in a straight line. If you point your bow in the wrong direction, the arrow can't turn in midair to correct your aim, and therefore you automatically miss.

A Seeker Arrow is different because it does turn in midair. For this one, it doesn't matter if you point your bow straight up, because the arrow curves to point itself the right way.

Why would the ability gained at 6th level be worse than that gained at 4th? That would be poor design.

If you have to pick the right 5' cube out of a 3-D space defined by the range of a composite longbow, assuming Far Shot feat, that would be a cube (if you don't nerf diagonals) or sphere (if you consider every other diagonal move as 10' instead of 5') either 71 blocks on a side or with a radius of 35.5 blocks. This gives you a one-in-357900 chance of hitting for the cube, or about one-in-190000 chance of hitting for the sphere. Even if you can cut that down to one octant of the space (above or below horizon, between two cardinal compass points), that's still about 1-in-45000 or 1-in-24000, respectively. Hell, even the chance of rolling a natual 20 three times in a row is only 1-in-8000.

I would figure Monte could do better than that - and I assume he did. This has got to be the most worthless ability in the game unless it does find the target within reason.

Quoted from the SRD/DMG
At 6th level, the arcane archer can launch an arrow once per day at a target known to her within range, and the arrow travels to the target in a straight path, passing through any nonmagical barrier or wall in its way. [...] This ability negates cover, concealment, and even armor modifiers, but otherwise the attack is rolled normally.


It does not say "the arrow travels to the target if you guessed its location" or "a target whose location is precisely known". From you, to the target, straight line, and that is where the arrow goes. It really doesn't get much simpler than that. There is no alteration of this text in the DMG Errata, or any other ruling or clarification in the DnD FAQ; these are the only two official sources.

If you think this ability violates some law of fantasy physics, then disallow the prestige class; you probably have already on other grounds if you hold this viewpoint. Otherwise, just as you learned in geometry, a straight line connects two points. Connect your points (the arcane archer and his known target), see if the line crosses a "magical barrier", and either roll an attack or not. Ta-da! This definitely gets filed under Prestige Classes 101...

-Fletch!
 

mkletch said:
If you have to pick the right 5' cube out of a 3-D space defined by the range of a composite longbow, assuming Far Shot feat, that would be a cube (if you don't nerf diagonals) or sphere (if you consider every other diagonal move as 10' instead of 5') either 71 blocks on a side or with a radius of 35.5 blocks. This gives you a one-in-357900 chance of hitting for the cube, or about one-in-190000 chance of hitting for the sphere. Even if you can cut that down to one octant of the space (above or below horizon, between two cardinal compass points), that's still about 1-in-45000 or 1-in-24000, respectively. Hell, even the chance of rolling a natual 20 three times in a row is only 1-in-8000.


Oooooh D&D math ;) lol :D



I'm not mocking, your calc's seem to be correct (???). I don't know, I haven't checked. It just struck me as funny (in relation to my last post)
 

Yeah, I love D&D math, too.

I had to fudge a little with the sphere; not sure how cubes stack to fill a sphere, so I did the sphere like a normal geometrical shape and divided by 125 for 5' cubes. It's probably a tad high, since you discard all of the partial cubes under 63 cubic feet, instead of adding them up.

Hey, even odds of 1:100 or 1:1000 don't bug me overmuch. But 1:24000 is silly.

-Fletch!
 
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mkletch said:

Otherwise, just as you learned in geometry, a straight line connects two points. Connect your points (the arcane archer and his known target), see if the line crosses a "magical barrier", and either roll an attack or not. Ta-da! This definitely gets filed under Prestige Classes 101...
Hey now, there's no reason to be all huffy and snide. I quoted an email from the Sage, and am explaining the reasoning behind it. Really, I'm not questioning your manhood or anything like that, so please try and be civil.

Second: yes, you're right, a straight line. The point is, you must pick the correct line. You need not pick a specific 5' cube, but you do need to specify a direction.

Say I'm standing in the center of a room with two doors, one each on the north and east walls. I think my long-time nemesis is standing behind the eastern door, waiting to ambush me. I fire a Phase Arrow to the east, with the instruction to strike "Grog the Evil." However, Grog is actually behind the northern door. My arrow passes through the east door, and continues on to the end of its range, but does not hit Grog because it cannot turn in midair.

To say it another way: when firing a Phase Arrow, choose a straight path for the arrow to follow, ignoring physical barriers. If at any point along its flight, the arrow enters the square of an identified target, make the attack roll.

Third: No one ever said that Phase Arrow is weaker than Seeker Arrow. It's just a different ability. For one thing, it ignores armor bonuses to AC, making it very useful for special-effect arrows (like the Arrow Of Death ability of this same PrC).

It really doesn't get much simpler than that. There is no alteration of this text in the DMG Errata, or any other ruling or clarification in the DnD FAQ; these are the only two official sources.
Ah, okay, I didn't spot this bit before. Shall I just file you under "Sage-basher" right now, or did you want to insult me some more first?
 
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As has been noted above, the ability for the phase arrow to ignore armor is pretty sweet in a lot of cases. Add to this that you can use it to shoot someone who is trying to break down the door of the room you are hiding in and it gets better. Then add the synergy between phase and seeker (seeker arrows don't fit through keyholes, do they?) and Phase Arrow makes the Arcane Archer more powerful even if it doesn't automatically aim for you.

I don't think that "in a straight path" implies a targeting ability at all. If you want the targeting ability, make it a Phase-Seeker Arrow.

On the general question of whether the AA is too powerful, I would have to disagree, with some caveats. At most levels the characters HP are lacking, and at best the lack of shield drops their AC by 3 to 7 points below a fighter. Low AC and low HP are alright as long as you can hide behind a fighter or barbarian. I ran an AA a while back and he was a death machine at range, but as soon as he got in close quarters he was fighting defensively and hoping for the single classed fighter to clean up quickly.

The wizard level was a pain too, lowering his BAB by one so he was always one level behind the fighter for acquiring an extra iterative attack. And the at level 7 when he picked up that wizard level he went from a front-line fighter to a second rate fighter overnight -- he took some hard knocks the first few sessions until he broke his old habits. Most prestige classes are more powerful if you start at high levels and don't have to live through the prerequisites.

Seemed balanced to me.
 

AuraSeer said:

Yes, you're right, a straight line. The point is, you must pick the correct line. You need not pick a specific 5' cube, but you do need to specify a direction.

The ability does not say that you need to pick or know the direction. You shoot the arrow, and it goes in a straight line to the target. Or maybe it makes more sense with a slight wording change: it goes to the target in a straight line. It going to the target implies most strongly that the arrow 'knows' where the target is, assuming it is in range.

Say I'm standing in the center of a room with two doors, one each on the north and east walls. I think my long-time nemesis is standing behind the eastern door, waiting to ambush me. I fire a Phase Arrow to the east, with the instruction to strike "Grog the Evil." However, Grog is actually behind the northern door. My arrow passes through the east door, and continues on to the end of its range, but does not hit Grog because it cannot turn in midair.

To say it another way: when firing a Phase Arrow, choose a straight path for the arrow to follow, ignoring physical barriers. If at any point along its flight, the arrow enters the square of an identified target, make the attack roll.

To me, pick a direction means pick the end point of the path. A vector is defined by two points (as a line), but has a direction. That means I have to pick a 5' square (or cube in 3-D), and draw a line from the center of my square to the other. Any square along that line is 'along that direction'. If I pick the 5' square next to my opponent ('next to' from my perspective), then I would miss, per your interpretation.

I would say that if you are off by 90, 60 or maybe even 30 degrees, the phase arrow would miss. If it were 30 degrees, the target would have to lie within a cone effect which has a range equal to your bow. Sounds pretty reasonable to me. It is a spell-like ability, but I don't see it as shooting the arrow straight up and having it veer toward the target.

Third: No one ever said that Phase Arrow is weaker than Seeker Arrow. It's just a different ability. For one thing, it ignores armor bonuses to AC, making it very useful for special-effect arrows (like the Arrow Of Death ability of this same PrC).

If the seeker gets an attack roll within its restrictions (if the king hides inside a footlocker he would be immune), but very few shots with the phase arrow even get to make an attack roll, then phase arrow would clearly be weaker. If you consider the circumference of a circle of radius 177.5 feet would be over 1100 feet, and say each 5' is a direction, you have nearly 225 different directions to shoot from (in a whole circle). Same thing over a sphere gives you about 15800 directions. Only one 'direction' gives you an attack roll per your interpretation. I want an attack roll any time I have a clue where the opponent is.

By the time you get arrow of death, a DC20 fortitude save is irrelevant to almost everything you fight (other NPCs, outsiders, dragons, other beasties with huge # of hit dice).

Ah, okay, I didn't spot this bit before. Shall I just file you under "Sage-basher" right now, or did you want to insult me some more first?

No, the sage is the best. But anything that is in sage advice goes through the 3E rules committee first, then into the DnD FAQ. His 'rulings' are law as far as I'm concerned. He helped us out with several rulings as well, but they have not gone into the faq yet, either.

Burst effects and other things that happen at the same time as criticals do affect creatures that are not subject to criticals. The crit does not happen, but the other effect just uses the threat confirmation mechanic as a convenience. Also, fortified armor negates burst effects and, more importantly, vorpal, and other crit mechanic effects. Negating a critical hit is stronger than being not subject to them; 'negating' is active defense, while 'not subject' is passive. The active defense if 'better'. But as long as this does not make it into sage advice or the DnD FAQ, I would not try to pass it off as Truth.

-Fletch!
 

But as long as this does not make it into sage advice or the DnD FAQ, I would not try to pass it off as Truth.
Ah, sorry, I forgot that everyone on this board sees me as the Infallible Purveyor Of The One And Only Truth. Next time, I'll be sure to specifically state that I'm pointing out an emailed Sage ruling.

Oh wait, I did point that out. Why are you so upset, again?
 

MThibault said:
As has been noted above, the ability for the phase arrow to ignore armor is pretty sweet in a lot of cases. Add to this that you can use it to shoot someone who is trying to break down the door of the room you are hiding in and it gets better. Then add the synergy between phase and seeker (seeker arrows don't fit through keyholes, do they?) and Phase Arrow makes the Arcane Archer more powerful even if it doesn't automatically aim for you.

I don't think that "in a straight path" implies a targeting ability at all. If you want the targeting ability, make it a Phase-Seeker Arrow.

You cannot combine the two abilities. Each is a spell-like ability that includes shooting the arrow involved...

On the general question of whether the AA is too powerful, I would have to disagree, with some caveats. At most levels the characters HP are lacking, and at best the lack of shield drops their AC by 3 to 7 points below a fighter.

Animated shield?

The wizard level was a pain too, lowering his BAB by one so he was always one level behind the fighter for acquiring an extra iterative attack. And the at level 7 when he picked up that wizard level he went from a front-line fighter to a second rate fighter overnight -- he took some hard knocks the first few sessions until he broke his old habits.

I took the wizard level at third, so it was not as bad. Plus, the fighter multi-classed with rogue, and we had a cleric, so I still got my extra attacks faster.

-Fletch!
 

AuraSeer said:

Ah, sorry, I forgot that everyone on this board sees me as the Infallible Purveyor Of The One And Only Truth. Next time, I'll be sure to specifically state that I'm pointing out an emailed Sage ruling.

Oh wait, I did point that out. Why are you so upset, again?

Not upset at all. I like to discuss things. I don't even expect people to agree with me. If we understand all points of view as much as possible, even those we disagree with, then it makes us better gamers and - profound pause - better people. I think you are a better person just for having put up with me for so long...

For rules discussions, I just restrain myself to 'official' rulings. What I consider official may be different than you. I game with guys who take dragon magazine articles as gospel; to me, Dragon is only useful input (even articles by SKR, Monte or Skip; excepting Sage Advice since it does through the rules committee), but not Truth.

-Fletch!
 

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