Arcane Spell Failure - Is It Silly?

[Terath Ninir]

No, it's archtype-enforcing.

You are a Hardhead, aren't you? What you call archetype-enforcing I call character-limiting.

In most fantasy, wizards don't run around in full plate armor. That's not to say it should be impossible for wizards to run around in full plate armor. D&D let's you do that if you take Still Spell. But it certainly shouldn't be the default.

Still spell is not a *good* option, because it reduces your power by an incredible amount.

That's even leaving out the argument that wizards would be too powerful if they could wear full plate and carry a shield. I submit they would be.

No, a low-level wizard that had decent armour would be a wonderful thing! Then my fighter could fight without having to worry about the wizard getting killed by the first goblin (or worse yet, orc) that comes along.


It's a silly artifact. Wizards can now, relatively painlessly, get decent hp and decent weapons. A gnome wizard with a 3.0 toad familiar and the dwarven waraxe exotic proficiency (in 3.0, so he can use it in two hands -- in 3.5, he'd get the half-strength version in one hand) is pretty much a badass. Heck, even without the toad he's sitting pretty. Why not throw in armour, too? Only because they balked at putting that sacred cow on the altar.

Well, that, and it blurs the line between wizard and cleric. But the cleric is a pretty silly class, anyway. I can name exactly one series (the Elenium/Tamuli by David Eddings) that has anything like it -- and their magic is more like a D&D wizard, anyway! Since there are few to no litterary clerics, why balk at a wizard in armour? Tradition, that's all. And if tradition is all you've got to go on, you don't have a good enough reason to keep doing what you're doing.

 

[kirinke]

*shrugs

take silent spell.
take still spell
take eschew materials
buy armor and a bastard sword.
go nuts.
in that order.

 

[Plane Sailing]

take silent spell.
take still spell
take eschew materials
buy armor and a bastard sword.
go nuts.
in that order.

And the point of this suggestion is?

 

[Sertimon]

And the point of this suggestion is?

To make a "viable" spellcaster in armor perhaps?

Personally, I don't see the big deal with letting arcane spellcasters cast spells in armor, if they have proficiency in it. I would at least like the option to use armor by taking armor proficiency feats. It even explains why bards can cast in light armor, clerics in heavy armor etc.

 

[Plane Sailing]

To make a "viable" spellcaster in armor perhaps?

Personally, I don't see the big deal with letting arcane spellcasters cast spells in armor, if they have proficiency in it. I would at least like the option to use armor by taking armor proficiency feats. It even explains why bards can cast in light armor, clerics in heavy armor etc.

Glad to see you agree with my points made earlier!

My short response to kirinke was basically that what he was suggesting would make an unutterably poor fighter (poor BAB, feeble hit points, no armour proficiency thus armour check penalty on lots of stuff) along with an unutterably poor wizard (use his 3rd level slots to cast 1st level spells? yeah, right)

I guess I could just have done a and expressed myself more eloquently. It seems that he posted without digesting any of the arguments on the thread!

 

[AeroDm]

While I agree that ASF often seems rather silly and removing it makes some of the assumptions of the game work better, I think that it would lead to the detriment of wizards. What wizard wont multiclass if doig so affords them weapons and armor proficiencies? Picking up one level of fighter boosts your HD, BAB, and most importantly would grant the weapon and armor prof.

The most powerful wizards would no longer be straight wizards as the one level casting loss is balance, imo, by +8 (or more) AC. Likewise, the knowledge that you will be wearing heavy armor allows you drop that high stat you would have placed in Dex and make that Con even higher. I also feel that it is imoportant to note, especially since this is the house rule forum, that when people tweak the rules about magic, they usually don't stop with one thing. Many of the responders probably also responded about allowing class level to replace caster level or the like. Now not only are you encouraging multiclassing for the explicit benefits, but you are reducing the implicit hindrances. Not good overall.

 

[Plane Sailing]

The most powerful wizards would no longer be straight wizards as the one level casting loss is balance, imo, by +8 (or more) AC. .

Would you care to elucidate further? (and bearing in mind that the +8 to AC requires a heft amount of cash to purchase, and slows down your movement to 20ft with no running allowed). A wizard can make scrolls to get +8 AC from mage armour and shield if he was so inclined, for instance. What are the scenarios where you would see this being over-effective in the case of wizards?

I'm playing a sorcerer in a campaign with a wizard, and having him always get higher level spells before me is a real annoyance

 

[kirinke]

lol

well. the arcane spell failure thing sucks.
but there is a reason for it.
armor is heavy and impedes movement somewhat. But, if the magic user is worth his salt, he or she will quickly find some magical bracers, rings, cloaks etc that boost your ac. In the mean-time, multi-classing is an option, as well as staying beyond arrow range and lobbing magical nastiness at your enemies. (a mage is valuable in a group.)

But i'd multi-class anyway, so i can get those higher hit points etc. Cuz, when the spells run out, your s.o.l. and it's nice to be able to use a sword when that happens.

 

[Stalker0]

Would you care to elucidate further? (and bearing in mind that the +8 to AC requires a heft amount of cash to purchase, and slows down your movement to 20ft with no running allowed). A wizard can make scrolls to get +8 AC from mage armour and shield if he was so inclined, for instance. What are the scenarios where you would see this being over-effective in the case of wizards?

I'm playing a sorcerer in a campaign with a wizard, and having him always get higher level spells before me is a real annoyance

Well there are several disadvantages to plate armor. First, don't forget its fairly heavy, and many wizards aren't known to be strength whores. I had a dwarven cleric recently with an 8 strength and full plate, and to my woe I realized many of the items I wanted to carry I had to give up because of the strength requirement. Also, unlike mage armor it doesn't work against touch attacks, and you can't have it on all the time.

And as far as the wizard x/fighter 1, your giving up a caster level for that. To anyone whose every tried a multiclass wizard they know how utterly painful that is. So I gain a +1 bab (which only really applies to ray spells), 3 more hp, +4 to AC over mage armor and a bonus fighter feat. And for that, I have to wait another level to get my 4th level spells? Damn, now I have to another level for 5th level ones? Man, now I'm even weaker against spell resistance. While for a one shot game where you just whip up an 18th level character, its not a big deal, but when you play him every level up it becomes a real tradeoff.

So I say, let the wizards have their one level of fighter if they want the armor. They are taking a real loss for real benefits. Choices, not restrictions.

 

[AeroDm]

Would you care to elucidate further? (and bearing in mind that the +8 to AC requires a heft amount of cash to purchase, and slows down your movement to 20ft with no running allowed). A wizard can make scrolls to get +8 AC from mage armour and shield if he was so inclined, for instance. What are the scenarios where you would see this being over-effective in the case of wizards?

I'm playing a sorcerer in a campaign with a wizard, and having him always get higher level spells before me is a real annoyance

+8 AC does not require a 'heft amount of cash' especially when compared to the other common options of Bracers of Armor. 1500 gp is a drop in the bucket at all levels but low levels and most of the conversation about balance seems to be taking place in the mid to upper.

The movement penalty and running are a hindrance, but spells like fly and expeditious retreate remove these hindrances. Also, although a wizard could gain +8 from shield and mage armor, that is two rounds of casting not to mention xp and gp cost which will eventually compound. This +8 AC is stable and persistent.

I don't really think it is overpowering in and of itself. I think it is a definite power boost especially when you start looking at more exotic armor twinks (something I do not excel in nor try to excel at). However, I think that this house rule will encourage wizards and sorcerers to multi-class into fighter types too often. The benefits of starting as a fighter and then multiclassing into wizard after one level are just too great: weapons, armor, shield, bonus feat, higher HP, equal (albeit different) skills, and now no ASF (resulting in higher AC) at the cost of one caster level.