Arcane Thesis Abuse (PHB II)

[Hypersmurf]

Yes, but my question is:
What level is a Maximized, Empowered fireball with Arcane Thesis (Fireball)?

It's an interesting question. Is the "When you apply a metamagic feat to the spell" condition fulfilled twice?

A spontaneous caster only increases casting time once, no matter how many feats he applies... but the increase is for casting "a metamagic version of a spell", so that fits the wording.

The implication of the Arcane Thesis wording is that each feat applied reduces spell level by one...

-Hyp.

 

[Simplicity]

It's an interesting question. Is the "When you apply a metamagic feat to the spell" condition fulfilled twice?

A spontaneous caster only increases casting time once, no matter how many feats he applies... but the increase is for casting "a metamagic version of a spell", so that fits the wording.

The implication of the Arcane Thesis wording is that each feat applied reduces spell level by one...

-Hyp.

Awesome! I gotta get me some of them Empowered, Empowered, Empowered, Empowered, Empowered, Empowered, Empowered, Empowered Magic Missiles. ~25 * 5d4 isn't too shabby for damage. Plus it's fun to write on your character sheet.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Awesome! I gotta get me some of them Empowered, Empowered, Empowered, Empowered, Empowered, Empowered, Empowered, Empowered Magic Missiles. ~25 * 5d4 isn't too shabby for damage. Plus it's fun to write on your character sheet.

That still can't be done: "You can’t apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell."

 

[Particle_Man]

I think they closed the "Empowered empowered" loophole so you can't repeat the same metamagic feats on the same casting of a spell.

 

[Simplicity]

Aw. WotC is no fun...

 

[KarinsDad]

The implication of the Arcane Thesis wording is that each feat applied reduces spell level by one...

That's not an implication, that's a Hyp inference.

When you apply a metamagic feat other than Heighten Spell to that spell, the enhanced spell uses up a spell slot one level lower than normal.

You have to ask yourself the following questions:

What is the normal level of a Maximized Empowered Fireball? 8
What is one level below the normal level? 7

Now, there is a fair argument that when you apply the Empowered to the Fireball, it normally is level 4 (for the Thesis spell) and when you apply Maximized to that, it now becomes 7 and is lowered to 6.

There is also a fair argument that when you apply the Empowered to the Fireball, it becomes level 4 (for the Thesis spell) and when you apply Maximized to that, it becomes 7 and since the spell already uses a spell slot one level lower than normal, the second metamagic does not change that (i.e. two levels below normal is not one level below normal).

The fact is, either interpretation is valid, depending on how you read (or want to read) the feat.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

Wow, the possibilities with Acid splash are endless. Since a substituted acid splash with arcane thesis is a -1 level spell, wands and scrolls make you earn money and XP when you make them, and you finish making them before you start!

Does that mean if my character plans to do energy substition and arcane thesis acid splash I can have the magic items before I take the feat? Can I auto level as high as I want?

 

[Hypersmurf]

What is the normal level of a Maximized Empowered Fireball?

Hmm, true. I was focusing on the 'when you apply' rather than the 'lower than normal'.

Although:

A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative.

Metamagic feats all refer to "the spell's actual level", which doesn't change except in the case of Heighten Spell... and yet the 'changes to its level are cumulative' clause results in an Empowered Maximized fireball taking up a slot 5 levels higher than "the spell's actual level".

Presumably, the same clause will result in a Thesis version of the spell taking up a slot 5 levels higher than the spell's actual level, but 2 levels lower than normal...

-Hyp.

 

[Amazing Triangle]

But a second level fireball has a save of DC 12 + modifier instead of 13+modifier. This sometimes can make a huge difference in who makes the save and who doesn't.

 

[Jack Simth]

Oh, it's still a level-3 spell; it's just taking up a slot one level lower than normal, just as an Empowered fireball is still a 3rd level spell, it just takes up a slot two levels higher than normal.