Arcane Thesis Abuse (PHB II)

[Someone]

Well, quoting your quote:

The character must spend the gold and XP at the beginning of the construction process

Therefore, if rules prohibit you from tearing the fabric of spacetime finishing items before you start crafting them, they are silent on how many times per day you can start or abandon a proyect, and therefore we can hold on that to screw the rules maniacally. The process would be as follows:

"I think I´ll make a wand of cold-substituted acid arrow"

*ping*

"Nah, I think I won´t do it. On the other hand, perhaps it´d be a good idea"

*ping*

"Or perhaps no? Better not do it. But actually, such a wand would be great to cool water and beer"

*ping*

...

 

[Question]

Response (Zephreum H.) 05/17/2006 08:59 AM
Thank you for contacting us.

It can reduce the slot modifier so that it does not use a slot higher than your spell, but you cannot lower it beyond the level of spell you are casting.

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[Mistwell]

Response (Zephreum H.) 05/17/2006 08:59 AM
Thank you for contacting us.

It can reduce the slot modifier so that it does not use a slot higher than your spell, but you cannot lower it beyond the level of spell you are casting.

Take Care!
We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire.

To login to your account, or update your question please click here.

Zephreum.
Customer Service Representative
Wizards of the Coast
1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada)
425-204-8069 (From all other countries)
Monday-Friday 7am-6pm PST / 10am-9pm EST

Still doesn't really answer the question of what level spell slot is used to cast an energy substituted, nonlethal substituted, maximized fireball. Is it a 5th level spell, or a 3rd level spell?

 

[Ditch]

Good point! I'd really like to know if it applies to each metamagic feat applied to the spell, or just -1 level after all of the adjustments to level are made. This would make a huge difference in how many matamagic feats I'd take. Obviously all the +1 level metamagic feats become free if you use the liberal interpretation, so every time I'd cast my thesis spell it would be silent, stilled, enlarged, extended, etc...

 

[Henry]

Regarding Arcane Thesis and the metamagic adjustment: I find it perfectly reasonable to assume "to a minimum of the same spell level" as legitimate ruling. Just like Cure light wounds doesn't give you bonus hit points, and Mithril Chain gives you a +0 to your armor check penalty instead of a +1, I'd say that similar reasoning would apply here.

Of course, until they errata it, if you can get a DM to go along with it, I say go for it!

I'd really like to know if it applies to each metamagic feat applied to the spell, or just -1 level after all of the adjustments to level are made. This would make a huge difference in how many matamagic feats I'd take. Obviously all the +1 level metamagic feats become free if you use the liberal interpretation, so every time I'd cast my thesis spell it would be silent, stilled, enlarged, extended, etc...

I think for that reason alone it would be wise not to interpret it in that way.

 

[KarinsDad]

I think for that reason alone it would be wise not to interpret it in that way.

Precisely.

Course, having all of those feats is quite an accomplishment itself.

 

[Bill Bisco]

I actually started a thread about this exact topic at the Wizards boards. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=638724

I sent Wizards an email asking how Arcane Thesis applied to multiple Metamagic Feats.

Customer (BIll Bisco) 05/13/2006 11:49 AM
I'm curious about one of the New Feats from Player's Handbook II. Arcane Thesis says that you choose a spell and whenever you apply a metamagic feat to the spell, the enhanced spell uses one level lower than normal. The feat doesn't list what happens when you apply more than one metamagic feat to the spell in question. Does it lower the increased spell level per metamagic feat or does it just lower the total spell level by 1 regardless of the metamagic feats applied?

Response (Chris L.) 05/15/2006 08:08 AM
Thank you for contacting us.
For every metamagic feat you add to that spell, you would reduce the slot bump by one. So if you were to prepare an empowered maximized magic missile (assuming magic missile is the spell you choose for your Arcane Thesis), it would be prepared as a 4th level spell (+1 level for empowered, down from +2; and +2 levels for maximized, down from +3)

I hope this information is useful.
Good Gaming!

So yes!, every metamagic feat applied reduces the spell slot by one.

what level spell slot is used to cast an energy substituted, nonlethal substituted, maximized fireball. Is it a 5th level spell, or a 3rd level spell?

It is a third level spell if you have Arcane Thesis: Fireball

As a result of Arcane Thesis, Sanctum spell becomes an interesting feat because it can be applied to any spell even if it doesn't do damage. Also, for crafting negative level wands and stuff, remember that you need to be at least level 6 to take Arcane thesis since it requires 9 ranks in Knowledge:Arcana. I already posted 2 builds at wizards. I must say that Arcane Thesis is by far one of my favorite feats.

 

[Mistwell]

I actually started a thread about this exact topic at the Wizards boards. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=638724

I sent Wizards an email asking how Arcane Thesis applied to multiple Metamagic Feats.



So yes!, every metamagic feat applied reduces the spell slot by one.



It is a thrid level spell if you have Arcane Thesis: Fireball

As a result of Arcane Thesis, Sanctum spell becomes an interesting feat because it can be applied to any spell even if it doesn't do damage. Also, for crafting negative level wands and stuff, remember that you need to be at least level 6 to take Arcane thesis since it requires 9 ranks in Knowledge:Arcana. I already posted 2 builds at wizards. I must say that Arcane Thesis is by far one of my favorite feats.

Actually your question and answer, combined with the prior one in this thread (which said "It can reduce the slot modifier so that it does not use a slot higher than your spell, but you cannot lower it beyond the level of spell you are casting"), does not come up with that result necessarily. It could be that each application of the feat to a metamagic feat is taken separately, with the "minimum +0" rule being applied each time.

In other words if you want to cast an energy substituted, nonlethal substituted, maximized fireball, you decide on the spell level in this order: 1) an enegery substituted spell would be of the same spell level as the base spell (+0); 2) a nonlethal substituted spell would be of the same spell level as the base spell (+0); and 3) a maximized spell would be +2 spell levels (+2). The base spell is 3rd level. So 3+0+0+2=5. Hence, if you add each of these up, you get a 5th level spell slot being used (which is the same result if you had not had not applied the +0 metamagic feats at all).

The way you intepreted it, the +0 metamagic feats apply a -1 spell slot to the entire equation, even if alone they could not apply a -1 spell slot due to the "It can reduce the slot modifier so that it does not use a slot higher than your spell, but you cannot lower it beyond the level of spell you are casting" ruling.

It remains unclear what happens when you apply one or more +0 metamagic feats and a +2 or more metamagic feat to the same spell using this arcane thesis feat.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

It remains unclear what happens when you apply one or more +0 metamagic feats and a +2 or more metamagic feat to the same spell using this arcane thesis feat.

The way I read this feat is "Each metamagic feat adds 1 level less to your spell to a minimum of 0 added".

So, if you applied 7 metamagic feats to a spell, 4 of which were +0, 2 were +1, and 1 was +2, you'd end up with a spell 1 level higher than it started.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Let's not forget the most important aspect of the feat - it makes Persistent Fear viable without jumping through all sorts of hoops with Prestige Classes or custom domains!

-Hyp.