Arcane Thesis Abuse (PHB II)

[Jack Simth]

Wow, the possibilities with Acid splash are endless. Since a substituted acid splash with arcane thesis is a -1 level spell, wands and scrolls make you earn money and XP when you make them, and you finish making them before you start!

That doesn't quite work out:

The creator also needs a fairly quiet, comfortable, and well-lit place in which to work. Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items. Creating an item requires one day per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price, with a minimum of at least one day. Potions are an exception to this rule; they always take just one day to brew. The character must spend the gold and XP at the beginning of the construction process.

(Emphasis added)

So it takes you one day each to make those caster level 1, -1 level spell scrolls, each of which causes you to spend -1 xp and -12.5 gp, and is worth -25 gp (unless you make them at higher caster levels......). Going from level 1 to level 2 in this manner will take you 1,000 days, or about 3 years. Then, using your caster level of 2, you get -1 spell level scrolls at caster level 2 for an expenditure of -2 xp and -25 gp; to get the 2,000 xp to go from level 2 to level 3 will take you.... 1,000 days. So, to go up 19 levels (1st-20th) doing this, you need to spend 19,000 days crafting scrolls that are worth progressively less (a +1 caster level item, such as the Orange Prisim Ioun Stone, speeds things up, but only slightly). It runs about 52 years. A human Wizard could, depending on the prerequisites of the feats, start doing this at 1st level, but would be Venerable by the time the Wizard started adventuring (minimum starting age for a human wizard: 17; +19 levels from that abusive trick: 53 years; Venerable Human: 70 years). An Elf would *might* be middle aged. If you happen to have access to the Psionics handbook, an Elan would still be a normal adult.

Of course, as a DM, if those happened to be on my list of allowable sources, a player attempting this logic would earn a quick thwap on the head with whatever book was biggest.

Edit: Ah! Wands, at 5th level, would speed things up considerably; Wand's market price: 750 * spell * caster; stuck with a -1 level spell, tops, but a wand of Arcane Thesis Substituted Ray of Frost would grant you, at caster level 5, 1875 gp and 150 xp per wand; at one wand per day, it only takes 33 1/3 such to gain a level that way. As it scales, a caster level 6 wand of Arcane Thesis Substitued Ray of Frost would get more gp and XP, and would thus take the same number of days to reach the next level. So 5,000 days to get to 5th level, then 33 and 1/3rd days per level thereafter (call it 34). With a 365 day year, getting to 20th level takes 5000+34*15= 5,510 days, or about 15 years. And leaves you with 12.5 more GP than XP.

Edit 2: And forgot the +2 caster level! Oy, I'm missing off ball today. So that -1st level scroll is valued at -75 gp, so 3 xp and 37.5 gp/day; 334 days to 1st level. Then you put out 4th caster level -1 spell level Rays of Frost(Acid) market at -100 gp, so 4 xp and 37.5 gp/day; 500 days to 2nd level. At 3rd, caster level 5th, 5 xp/day, 600 days; 4th, caster level 6th, 6 xp/day, 667 days. At 5th, take Craft Wand for caster level 7 wands of -1 spell level Rays of Frost (Acid) for market 5250, gain 210 xp/day, 23 days to level 6. Level 7

Ah, spreadsheets....
[sblock]

Level	Caster Level	Item Value	Materials	XP	Days to next level
1	3	-75	-37.5	-3	333.3333333
2	4	-100	-50	-4	500
3	5	-125	-62.5	-5	600
4	6	-4500	-2250	-180	22.22222222
5	7	-5250	-2625	-210	23.80952381
6	8	-6000	-3000	-240	25
7	9	-6750	-3375	-270	25.92592593
8	10	-7500	-3750	-300	26.66666667
9	11	-8250	-4125	-330	27.27272727
10	12	-9000	-4500	-360	27.77777778
11	13	-9750	-4875	-390	28.20512821
12	14	-10500	-5250	-420	28.57142857
13	15	-11250	-5625	-450	28.88888889
14	16	-12000	-6000	-480	29.16666667
15	17	-12750	-6375	-510	29.41176471
16	18	-13500	-6750	-540	29.62962963
17	19	-14250	-7125	-570	29.8245614
18	20	-15000	-7500	-600	30
19	21	-15750	-7875	-630	30.15873016
20	22	-16500	-8250	-660	30.3030303
					1906.168006

[/sblock]
Ah, ~1,906.168 days. Five years and a few months, to go from Wiz-1 to Wiz-20, assuming Arcane Thesis and Energy Substitution at 1st level. And incidentally, you have 12.5 * your XP in gp at any given point (but 25 gp * your XP in negative assets.... unless you burn them for warmth or something).

 

[KarinsDad]

Presumably, the same clause will result in a Thesis version of the spell taking up a slot 5 levels higher than the spell's actual level, but 2 levels lower than normal...

Or not. It all depends on how one wants to interpret it since it is not crystal clear.

 

[marune]

Seriously, you just don't think that the designer's intent was : One level lower, minimum = normal spell level? I won't even hesitate for a second on this.

 

[Seeten]

I love designer's intent, but I bet we'll swiftly get errata on this one.

 

[Crothian]

Seriously, you just don't think that the designer's intent was : One level lower, minimum = normal spell level? I won't even hesitate for a second on this.

People like to argue the words written. This just gets in the way of that.

 

[Mistwell]

So my 9th level wizard casts an energy subsituted, nonlethal substituted, empowered scorching ray using a first level spell slot with this feat for 12d6+50% worth of nonlethal acid damage with some ranged touch attacks and no saving throws, for an average of 63 points of damage if your ranged touch attacks hit. And it can be quickened too to bring it up to a 4th level spell for 126 points of damage a round if your 6 ranged touch attacks hit (for a 4th level and a 1st level spell)

Okay yeah...this is getting silly. Needs errata.

 

[Jack Simth]

So my 9th level wizard casts an energy subsituted, nonlethal substituted, empowered scorching ray using a first level spell slot with this feat for 12d6+50% worth of nonlethal acid damage with some ranged touch attacks and no saving throws, for an average of 63 points of damage if your ranged touch attacks hit. And it can be quickened too to bring it up to a 4th level spell for 126 points of damage a round if your 6 ranged touch attacks hit (for a 4th level and a 1st level spell)

No, no, no .... your 1st level human wizard makes -1 spell level Energy Substituted Ray of Frost scrolls, at a gain of GP and XP

Your 3rd level human wizard makes -2 spell level Energy Substituted (Energy Substituted Ray of Frost) scrolls (two different energy substitutions), at a gain of GP and XP

Your 5th level human wizard makes -2 spell level Energy Substituted (Energy Substituted Ray of Frost) wands (two different energy substitutions) at a big gain of GP and XP.

Your 9th level human wizard makes -3 spell level Energy Substituted (Energy Substituted (Energy Substituted Ray of Frost)) wands (three different energy substitutions) at a really big gain of GP and XP.

Your 10th level human wizard makes -4 spell level Energy Substituted( Energy Substituted (Energy Substituted (Energy Substituted Ray of Frost))) wands (four different energy substitutions) at an enormous gain of GP and XP.

Hmm... at what point does this interpertaion make a full level per wand? If you can dig up enough +0 spell level metamagic feats, at 20th level, he's making 6,600 xp per wand (10 +0 metamagic feats, all reduced by 1 by Arcane Thesis to -1 level adjustments, applied to a 0th level spell, at caster level 22; -10th level spell, caster level 22, wands valued at -165,000 gp; "spend" -6,600 xp and -82,500 gp). At Epic, 21st, that would be 11 such +0 feats, 7,590 xp per wand, 12 for 9000 xp each at 23rd .... and that's assuming he never picks up / Wishes up any Orange Prism Ioun Stones or similar.... he'd get a different time chart doing that, but basically loses all feats to the beast .... and the majority would still be spent in the 1st-5th transition, where only scrolls are available.... 17 such feats to spend at 30th ... -17*32*750=-408,000; 16,320 xp each - still not a full level per .... 40th would have 23 such at 28,980 xp per wand; 50th would have 30 such at 78,000 xp each .... gee, a level a day with no combat..... at 50th level. Assuming you can find 30 +0 spell level adjustment feats. And that Thesis feat works per metamagic feat applied. And your DM doesn't drop a cow on your character's head (it wants it's cheese back). And that it actually works that way. Et cetera.

Okay yeah...this is getting silly. Needs errata.

Agreed.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Your 3rd level human wizard makes -2 spell level Energy Substituted (Energy Substituted Ray of Frost) scrolls (two different energy substitutions), at a gain of GP and XP

I'm not convinced that's valid

Energy Subsitution isn't four different metamagic feats; it's one metamagic feat that can be taken four times.

You can’t apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell.

As a very tangential aside, this train of thought made me wonder - can a character with Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization in both Elven Thinblade and Longsword gain +2 to attack rolls and +4 to damage with his thinblade?

-Hyp.

 

[3d6]

Weapon Focus [General]
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for purposes of this feat.

Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

A fighter may select Weapon Focus as one of his fighter bonus feats. He must have Weapon Focus with a weapon to gain the Weapon Specialization feat for that weapon.

Weapon Specialization also specifies that it does not stack with itself. So, unfortunatly, no +6 on attacks and +12 on damage by taking Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Greater Weapon Specialization for the thinblade, rapier, and longsword.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Weapon Specialization also specifies that it does not stack with itself.

Ah, true.

Heh. I get the impression that's accidental - that the phrase is there to say "You can't take Weapon Focus (longsword) twice" - but it covers my question neatly

So, unfortunatly, no +6 on attacks and +12 on damage by taking Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Greater Weapon Specialization for the thinblade, rapier, and longsword.

Well, even were stacking not disallowed, the character can treat it as a longsword or a rapier, not a longsword and a rapier

-Hyp.