Archer Ranger vs 2-Weapon Ranger

[Oryan77]

I attempted to run a 1 vs 1 encounter for the party Archer (Ranger) against a Drow NPC 2-Weapon fighting Ranger.

Are archers just way better than a 2-weapon fighter? I made this drow 1 CR higher than the PC and the fight seemed like I was running a 2nd lvl NPC against a 7th lvl PC.

The PC is a 7th lvl Half-Elf Ranger with Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Point Blank Shot, & Arrow Mind cast.

The NPC was a 6th lvl Drow Ranger with 2-Weapon Fighting, Improved 2-Weapon Fighting, Quick Draw, & Ram's Might cast.

The PC got the surprise round and hit with 2 arrows. Then got 1 hit on the drow in the 1st round before the drow cast darkness and hit the PC with an arrow the next round.

The drow had to drink 2 cure mod. potions while the PC drank nothing.

During the whole battle, the PC was a better melee fighter with the +1 longbow than my drow was with his +1 rapier and +1 sickle. The drow had 4 attacks to the PC's 3 attacks. The PC's 3 attack scores are all much higher than all 4 of the drows attacks.

This player is new to D&D and I'm not the most strategic DM during combat (I admit), but there was no effort at all with this PC killing this NPC. As soon as I engaged head on, the PC took him out in 1 round with his 3 shots. I struggled to keep the drow alive and the PC never came close to hitting 0 HPs.

The Drow's ability scores weren't much lower than the PC's. Maybe I could have had better feats. But it seems like this archer is a better melee fighter than the groups melee fighters. I guess my question is....what the hell is going on here?

 

[frankthedm]

1. The arrow mind spell takes away a large balancing factor for bows IIRC.

2. Con penalties hurt drow bad.

3. The PC had surprise.

What type of battlefield did this combat take place in? Pure open terrain with no cover? If so the archer is going to win and should win.

 

[Oryan77]

1. The arrow mind spell takes away a large balancing factor for bows IIRC.

What's the general view about Arrow Mind? Do you know if the majority of people think it's overpowered and shouldn't be used in the game?

What type of battlefield did this combat take place in? Pure open terrain with no cover? If so the archer is going to win and should win.

It was on the side of a cliff that had a stairway going down the side. I didn't expect to have the fight there but that's where the PC jumped him. The PC was on the top of the cliff when he was on the stairs with his darkness covering the stairs. The drow managed to climb and sneak around her. He got a jump on her but I rolled poorly and missed 3 out of 4 attacks in the first round. On the PC's turn he killed the drow by doing a boatload of damage with all 3 shots.

The only thing that baffles me is that I built a melee fighter that wasn't nearly as good in melee as the archer was in melee. So I think to myself, "What's the point on using blades when you're better with a bow in melee?" I guess even though the Drow was a higher CR, he was still weaker all the way around. I assume I was playing a weaker character and tried going in for the kill with brute force when I should have kept being more tactical...popping in & out of the darkness doing range shots even though he was a melee fighter.

The problem was that the PC was better at ranged & melee attacks and only used the bow to do both.

 

[Darklone]

TWF Fighters aren't good against archers because:
- they lack the mobility sometimes necessary to follow "tumble away and Manyshot" rangers.
- Disarm is easier with bigger weapons... or the Sunder variant disarm
- extra damage for the TWF dude is hard to achieve against your average archer... sneak attack? How?

And I agree with Frank about the Con penalty in combination with one level less... makes for a very bad fighter no matter how good the Drow bonuses might seem.

 

[zeb.hillard]

Did their Favored Enemy options stack up against each other? With the Drow NPC I could easily see Elf as a give-in for both bumps so that it's dealing out +4 damage per hit. Did the PC have Favored Enemy: Elf? If so, that could have easily tipped an advantageous fight (Weak Con + lover level) more toward the PC's favor. Each hit within 30' not only hurts, but it punishes the Drow even more for having a weak Constitution.

My personal favorite for Melee Rangers is to supplient their chosen fighting style with a feat that benefits the other style, sure you may be pinched for feats eventually...but if you take Point Blank Shot to make up for a little bit of extra damage at range, you can soften up the opponent a bit more before you enter into melee...and Blindfighting so you can run to melee and drop Darkness, while getting the better of your opponent by getting to reroll your Miss Chances. Of course, those would be your two feats at 5th level, but for a Drow I could easily see them being reasonable due to the cramped quarters in the Underdark and the oft used Darkness spell.

Edited: PC Race change

 

[nittanytbone]

TWF is only efficient if you have sources of bonus damage. If the drow's Favored Enemy didn't match up well against the PC, the drow was in a boatload of trouble as his chosen fighting style ends up sucking. He'd have been better off with Power Attack and a greatsword if that was the case.

 

[Rackhir]

TWF also has significant penalties associated with it until you hit higher level and can take the boat load of feats that you have to in order to cancel out all the penalties. So it's not an optimal choice. Especially vs the archer. A Two handed weapon user with PA would have been a much better match.

TWF also works better when you have a character designed with add in damage (Mostly sneak attack, but elemental damage works too) that gets stacked on top of each attack, so you are getting more "oomph" out of your multiple attacks.

Finally, in the situation you are presenting the Drow isn't getting much benefit out of his LA. IIRC they get SR (no use againsts arrows), stat boosts (always helpful), spells (didn't use many of them).

In short, I think you are looking at a situation where you picked a weak combat style (TWF) vs a moderately strong combat style (archery). You then compounded the situation by saddling the Weak combat style guy with a LA for abilities that didn't really benefit his combat style.

 

[zeb.hillard]

A few suggestions, should you decide to run the fight again (Say the Drow NPC was brought back to life by his God to finish bringing vengeance on the one that killed him). If you're sculpting an NPC to act as a foil for a PC of near-level, I always use the PC Average Wealth table, other than the NPC one...it just seems more fitting for me.

Feat Selection: Weapon Finesse, Quick Draw, and Blind-Fight are all solid choices for a Drow Ranger. With a 2-wpn Fighter it's generally better to use two of the same weapon to maximize your bonuses and minimize the amount of feats you take. You could also exchange Quick Draw with Oversized Two Weapon Fighting to negate the penalties for fighting with two Rapiers.

Boots and Cloak of Elvenkind, along with a +1 Mithral Chain Shirt (Or just a +1 Mithral Chain Shirt of Shadow and Silent Move), a masterwork composite bow (Up to his Strength Modifier), and a pair of +1 weapons fit inside a 6th level cost range. These all help him move in close to the target and get optimum use out of his Favored Enemy bonus.
If you wanted to switch out the 6th level of Ranger with a level of Assassin. The Sneak Attack will add in beautifully with the Favored Enemy bonus in that first surprise round of combat, leveling the field somewhat against the ranged attack fighter.

It's an uphill climb, and you have to do some serious pick-and-choose to make the fight roughly even, but it's possible.

Also...did the Animal Companions factor in any? The Drow with a wolf (Free trip attack) can be absolutely savage against the Half-elf with a less-suitable animal compaion.

 

[Oryan77]

Thanks for all of the advice guys.

This was the first time I've gone 1 on 1 vs an archer, so I wasn't expecting this much of a challenge.

The Drow did have an animal companion dire rat. It was actually more effective during the combat than the drow. It had the PC's wolf cornered inside the darkness. The wolf kept attacking the wrong square or missing in the correct square. The rat never moved and just kept attacking the same square the wolf was in.

Overall, it was a nice fight. I think the PC actually learned that Drow are a nuisance and was wondering how tough they were in groups It was his first time fighting a Drow. Overall, I think I accomplished what I set out to do even though I felt I was a little weak going in for the kill.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Next time, start by sundering the bow.