Archer Ranger vs 2-Weapon Ranger

[Viktyr Gehrig]

TWF is only efficient if you have sources of bonus damage.

Yeah. Fighters, Rogues, and Swashbucklers are all better-prepared to dish out TWF hurting than Rangers are-- which is odd, because Rangers are the iconic two-weapon fighters. You can do absolutely unholy things with builds that combine all three...

 

[Darklone]

Yeah. Fighters, Rogues, and Swashbucklers are all better-prepared to dish out TWF hurting than Rangers are-- which is odd, because Rangers are the iconic two-weapon fighters. You can do absolutely unholy things with builds that combine all three...

Get a bard for extra song goodness

Favored enemy is really nice for TWF... I was never angry about favored enemy humans

 

[nittanytbone]

The problem with 1 on 1 showdowns with equal level NPCs is that the PC then loots the body and has a ton of extra wealth.

Find some way to make the equipment not so valuable... For example, in 1E, drow equipment melted in the sunlight and lost its magical properties if not regularly exposed to the radiation in the vault of the drow. Something like that might work.

 

[frankthedm]

The problem with 1 on 1 showdowns with equal level NPCs is that the PC then loots the body and has a ton of extra wealth.

Find some way to make the equipment not so valuable... For example, in 1E, drow equipment melted in the sunlight and lost its magical properties if not regularly exposed to the radiation in the vault of the drow. Something like that might work.

I like that, but with one caveat...Drow want normal equipment. They know how much their underdark-radiation requiring gear links them to the drow homeland and how helpless they could become if they flee when the rulership turns against them or if they are sent on an extended tour of duty. Having both normal magical gear and their pseudo-magic & psuedo-adamantine lets them get a minor bump to help them earn their CR and give players some gear that won't turn to dust.

I also recommend drow being behind the "magic item trade" of the surface world.

 

[Felix]

Next time, start by sundering the bow.

QFT.

I suppose the effect of Arrow Mind is to remove AoO's for firing ranged weapons while in a threatened area? Regardless, the drow should have sundered the bow for several reasons. First, the PC would not have been able to take an AoO as he doesn't threaten. Second, Bows are very, very easy to sunder; if it doesn't break in one hit, it will break on the second.

And once you've gotten rid of the ranger's weapon, he must resort to melee or grappling, either of which should benefit the drow.

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It is very easy for archers to get cocky because they do tremendous amounts of damage and don't get hurt. So when you have a melee character next to them, teach them why they want to stay away from melee characters and break their bow.

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Finally, Drow have a +2 LA and a Con penalty. This does not help when it comes to direct fighting; they are much better suited to being sneaky. This was another reason the fight didn't turn out as balanced as you had hoped.

 

[Oryan77]

I suppose the effect of Arrow Mind is to remove AoO's for firing ranged weapons while in a threatened area? Regardless, the drow should have sundered the bow for several reasons. First, the PC would not have been able to take an AoO as he doesn't threaten.

Yeah Arrow Mind removes the AoO but it acts as a threatened weapon. So the PC would get an AoO if the Drow Sundered. Even so, I agree with you, I'm going to have to start Sundering. I've never even used that rule before and neither have the players. It makes perfect sense to use it against an archer though. The PC has a magic bow, and I'm sure the first time I start trying to break it, the PC will never bring that bow back into a melee fight

I wish I had thought of that before.

Finally, Drow have a +2 LA and a Con penalty. This does not help when it comes to direct fighting; they are much better suited to being sneaky. This was another reason the fight didn't turn out as balanced as you had hoped.

It was my first time using a Drow in combat. Lesson learned.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I attempted to run a 1 vs 1 encounter for the party Archer (Ranger) against a Drow NPC 2-Weapon fighting Ranger.

Are archers just way better than a 2-weapon fighter? I made this drow 1 CR higher than the PC and the fight seemed like I was running a 2nd lvl NPC against a 7th lvl PC.

The PC is a 7th lvl Half-Elf Ranger with Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Point Blank Shot, & Arrow Mind cast.

The NPC was a 6th lvl Drow Ranger with 2-Weapon Fighting, Improved 2-Weapon Fighting, Quick Draw, & Ram's Might cast.

The PC got the surprise round and hit with 2 arrows. Then got 1 hit on the drow in the 1st round before the drow cast darkness and hit the PC with an arrow the next round.

The drow had to drink 2 cure mod. potions while the PC drank nothing.

During the whole battle, the PC was a better melee fighter with the +1 longbow than my drow was with his +1 rapier and +1 sickle. The drow had 4 attacks to the PC's 3 attacks. The PC's 3 attack scores are all much higher than all 4 of the drows attacks.

Way higher? Did the drow use Weapon Finesse?

This player is new to D&D and I'm not the most strategic DM during combat (I admit), but there was no effort at all with this PC killing this NPC. As soon as I engaged head on, the PC took him out in 1 round with his 3 shots. I struggled to keep the drow alive and the PC never came close to hitting 0 HPs.

The Drow's ability scores weren't much lower than the PC's. Maybe I could have had better feats. But it seems like this archer is a better melee fighter than the groups melee fighters. I guess my question is....what the hell is going on here?

Do it again. This time use a "clone" of the PC (same race, levels, amount of equipment, stats, etc) with the only differences being related to TWF vs archery. And get rid of Arrow Mind, at least for that battle. (No archery PrCs or anything else like that, either.)

Mind you, the archer will still win (assuming no complications). Light fighters in DnD are wimpy and TWF is very hard to optimize. Also, you have to use a full-round attack to use TWF, and you can't get that every round.

The ranger class finds archery a lot more useful. There's a reason people go hunting with bows (used to anyway), rather than a pair of cutting or stabbing instruments. A ranger will find that archery complements their stealth skills far more than TWF does.

If the archer seems strong, send a heavy fighter towards them. Don't bother with TWF. The archer will probably move every round anyway.

 

[Quartz]

Try putting the PC up against a human Rgr 5 / Ftr 2.

Feats should be something like:

Weapon Focus: Shortsword, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Dodge, and one other.

 

[Rackhir]

Yeah Arrow Mind removes the AoO but it acts as a threatened weapon. So the PC would get an AoO if the Drow Sundered. Even so, I agree with you, I'm going to have to start Sundering. I've never even used that rule before and neither have the players. It makes perfect sense to use it against an archer though. The PC has a magic bow, and I'm sure the first time I start trying to break it, the PC will never bring that bow back into a melee fight

I wish I had thought of that before.

As someone who's run an archer in a lot of campaigns, it's perfectly possible to challenge archers with out trying to destroy their bow at every opportunity. Doing so will likely cause the archer player to either drop out of the campaign or at least drop the character.

Sundering in general, is something that should be used only sparingly by the DM as it is in every way a "spoiler" of a tactic. Players get attached to their items, especially if they are something they've worked hard for.

If the character was proving to be overwhelmingly powerful and was abusing the system that would be one thing. However, the fact that you pitted a weak and poorly designed character against him and it did poorly, doesn't mean that you should start going out of your way to screw his character.

The DM can always set up character and encounters that prey upon the weaknesses of characters and flaws in their designs. Only poor DMs rely on that to challenge their characters though.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

If the character was proving to be overwhelmingly powerful and was abusing the system that would be one thing. However, the fact that you pitted a weak and poorly designed character against him and it did poorly, doesn't mean that you should start going out of your way to screw his character.

In general, I agree ... but if a character decides he wants to use a bow in melee combat instead of at range where it is intended to be used, he deserves what he gets.

I wouldn't attack an archer's weapon if he were fighting from range, but were he using it in a threatened area intentionally as in the OP's scenario, I'd sunder away until he got the hint.