D&D 5E Archetypes to add to 5e

I've probably seen them but can't recall them. I had forgotten that the rune priest was in 4e until I was flipping through one of the books. Would be one to look at though for ideas. I find a lot of the 4e paragon paths and 3e prestige classes are good inspiration for subclasses. Maybe I should go back and have a look at water themed divine classes for my clerical ocean domain.
The Covenent Agent was cool because it came with a couple feats to make the assassin/avenger build work during heroic, and then the Paragon Path was just super fun to play, and really synergies what the two classes had in common.

A 5e version would focus on being inescapable (distinct from simple mobility), and centering your attention entirely on a single target until they are dead.
So, I’d give it a Mark or Shroud or whatever, let the Agent get Sneak Attack on their Shroud target no matter what, and layer in spells that can only be used against a target with your Shroud on it, like a teleport that must bring you closer to them/bonus action to teleport next to them within X feet, hold person, ensaring strike or something like it, wrathful Smite, etc.

Maybe rather than it being only doable against the Shroud target, the Shroud enhances these effects?

I’d also go ahead and give them a channel divinity power at level 9.
Depends on what the purpose of redoing Tome of Battle is.

If you're looking to cover the archetypal flavors of the ToB classes, that's definitely doable within the fighter and monk. Arguably some of them are already covered by existing fighter and monk subclasses.

But if you're looking to resurrect the idea of an in-depth resource and maneuver system for martial characters, you should probably do that with classes built from the ground up for it. The problem with trying to do it within, say, the fighter class is that the fighter only has a fraction of its power budget allocated to its subclass features. Look at the difference between eldritch knight spellcasting and full spellcasting.

I'm a diehard fan of incarnum magic's mechanics, but I'm kind of indifferent to the flavor. So when I started thinking about how to bring those mechanics into 5E, I decided that incarnum users were basically monks: essentia as your qi, it just makes sense. However, it would have been rough trying to cram a whole incarnum system into a monk subclass, and the end result would probably be unsatisfying. Gotta build a whole new class around it, even if that class's name is just "Monk 2.0".
How complex and multifaceted are the incarnum rules? Why couldn’t a subclass just use ki in a new way?
I'm not threadcrapping, or suggesting that we don't need more archetypes, just that some of the stuff I've seen in this thread can be handled pretty well with a combo of MC and background and/or some easy and harmless reskinning. I also wasn't actually suggesting the trickery domain there specifically either. Something more damage focussed would probably be a better fit, and, really, the answer could well be to go Rogue/Paladin. Even the gloomstalker is a solid base for an aspected assassin depending on your tastes, as is the shadow monk.

If we wanted a Holy Assassin, what would you suggest? A Rogue with some spells, a cleric with some assassin? Something else entirely? Just curious.

See above for one very rough draft. Another way to go might be to get weird, and give the rogue stuff no divine class has, like unarmored defense, the ability to track your Marked target even when it would normally be impossible, maybe even see them when they’re invisible, and like, a soft damage boost in the form of 4e executioner’s Lethal feature. Ie, when you reduce a target to X HP or fewer, you can instead reduce them to 0.

Either way, I’d also add in the ability to make your SA damage Radiant or Necrotic.

Another assassin ability that a rogue could easily have would be more ways to get Reaction attacks against a chosen target. They make an attack while within reach of a weapon you are holding, attack them as a Reaction (with advantage if their attack misses). “At X level, you can do this while using Uncanny Dodge” would be sick as hell, even if it had to be a high level feature.
They move willingly while within 30 feet of you, teleport or dash or whatever and attack them.

Etc.
 

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@Tony Vargas - I hear you. Even in a game where MC isn't a thing, it could still be used on a one-off basis for a build outside the core classes. To play devil's advocate for a moment, if someone does want more archetypes to allow for some flexibility in builds, perhaps they should also be willing to look at MC as well to do the same work. I do completely agree that MC isn't the same as a different archetype, but they do accomplish similar tasks as far as builds go, and all I was suggesting is that some of the builds in question can be built effectively via MC.

Also, the EK isn't the same as Fighter/Wizard - the difference in class abilities is significant at high levels. That might actually prove your point more than mine though. :p

I brought this up more to churn some discussion about exactly what bits of a build really mitigate for a new archetype, as opposed to bits that can be accomplished using the tools already at hand. I though the difference might help focus in on what exactly people are looking for in a new archetype (for whatever build).
 

@Tony Vargas - I hear you. Even in a game where MC isn't a thing, it could still be used on a one-off basis for a build outside the core classes. To play devil's advocate for a moment, if someone does want more archetypes to allow for some flexibility in builds, perhaps they should also be willing to look at MC as well to do the same work. I do completely agree that MC isn't the same as a different archetype, but they do accomplish similar tasks as far as builds go, and all I was suggesting is that some of the builds in question can be built effectively via MC.

Also, the EK isn't the same as Fighter/Wizard - the difference in class abilities is significant at high levels. That might actually prove your point more than mine though. :p

I brought this up more to churn some discussion about exactly what bits of a build really mitigate for a new archetype, as opposed to bits that can be accomplished using the tools already at hand. I though the difference might help focus in on what exactly people are looking for in a new archetype (for whatever build).
IME, MC just does not work well at all for concepts that aren’t...thematically multiclassed.

What I mean is...my gnome rogue/wizard Dresden is very much a Swashbuckler turned Bladesinger. The kludge and oddballness of the build as a result of being multiclass is the right match for his story. Dresden is thematically multiclassed.

My buddy’s high Elf Eldritch Knight Aegnor has been training since adolescence to be an Eldritch Knight. He didn’t train with knights and then with wizards, he trained with a military that mixes spellcasting with martial practice as a cohesive martial tradition. Aegnor is thematically of a single tradition, thematically single class.

Had I built Dresden as an Arcane Trickster, it would have been wrong for his concept.
 

Hence why I said some and not all. MC really doesn't work in some cases, that's a given. Sometimes it works great though. And that was my entire point, not to suggest that additional archetypes are somehow unnecessary.
 

Hence why I said some and not all. MC really doesn't work in some cases, that's a given. Sometimes it works great though. And that was my entire point, not to suggest that additional archetypes are somehow unnecessary.

Sometimes you just want some new crunch to sink your teeth in.

I mean, wasn't a complaint about 4e that all the classes 'felt the same' because they had the same mechanical basis? Seems like a point in favour of unique flavour being (re)enforced by unique crunch?
 

Sometimes you just want some new crunch to sink your teeth in.

I mean, wasn't a complaint about 4e that all the classes 'felt the same' because they had the same mechanical basis? Seems like a point in favour of unique flavour being (re)enforced by unique crunch?

Very much so. We can always play a cleric with the criminal background reflavored and call that a holy assassin. Wanting new archetypes really isn’t about wanting a role playing concept. It’s normally wanting a mechanic from another class.
 

Poltroon -the coward, like TPratchetts Rincewind the Wizzard or Rowan Atkinsons Black Adder. Someone who cant fight but has an uncanny knack for using distraction to escape, run away and hide.

In 3e I used a rogue but with negative BAB (BAB could only used to distract or dodge and run away)
 

Sometimes you just want some new crunch to sink your teeth in.

I mean, wasn't a complaint about 4e that all the classes 'felt the same' because they had the same mechanical basis? Seems like a point in favour of unique flavour being (re)enforced by unique crunch?
I'm not arguing against new crunch. I like new crunch. I'd prefer my new crunch to actually be new though, and not something I could have done easily via MC or whatever.
 

TO EVERYONE DEBATING RELIGION IN 5E. A MOD HAS ALREADY ASKED THAT TO STOP IN THIS THREAD. If you want to continue, please take it to it's own thread.

I participated myself, but please respect the mod.


 

Very much so. We can always play a cleric with the criminal background reflavored and call that a holy assassin. Wanting new archetypes really isn’t about wanting a role playing concept. It’s normally wanting a mechanic from another class.
Well, no. It’s usually about wanting mechanics that actually directly represent the core elements of the concept, without being saddled with level after level of things that are at best tangential to the concept in order to get it.

If we wanted stuff from another class, MC is right there.

Edit: a Cleric with a background wouldn’t even vaguely play like a divine assassin.

Rogue with Ritualist: Cleric would be closer, but even if you also add Magic Initiate: Cleric to the build, it’s gonna be hard to make that feel, in actual play, like a finely honed blade in the left hand of god, outside of a low magic setting or one where most of god’s instruments aren’t overtly magical.
 
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