Are Buff Spells Overpowered?

[Al'Kelhar]

Hi (new member, old, technically-challenged DM here),

Just a few observations on this thread.

1. As a DM you should know your players and their capabilities - including their buffing capabilities. All of them can be countered, but never counter them so often or so effectively that the players feel that there's no point in having the capabilities. That just takes the fun out of playing potent kick-ass characters.

2. Buffing is less effective in circumstances where role-playing and problem-solving are necessary to obtain objectives.

3. In any encounter, bad guys should outnumber the PCs - it's impossible to focus on the High Priest at the back of the Temple of Unremitting Badness when you're surrounded by minions.

4. There is always someone bigger and badder than the PCs, and he's smarter and knows all their weaknesses (see observation 1).

5. Use character levels and templates ALOT. For example, in my campaign (6 9th level PCs plus 7th level cohort - which is about as powerful as a "typical" party of 4 11th level characters - see Sean K Reynold's views on the advantages of bigger parties, which I have the evidence to support), the characters walk through a portal to a piece of Avernus ripped from Hell and floating in the Ethereal plane. They don't encounter devils - they encounter fiendish minotaur barbarians, two-headed hell hounds, and the half-fiend/half-ogre mage fighter/wizard boss of the joint. Every monster has a template, most of them have character levels.

6. Armour class is irrelevant at high levels. If you want to make something hard to hit, make it hard to see. Your bad guy can be unarmoured and have a low Dex, but this is irrelevant if the fighter PC keeps missing because of concealment.

7. House Rules: Bull's Strength and Cat's Grace are grossly disproportionate in power to all other 2nd level spells. IMC they have a duration of 1/min per level - enough for one combat, but not more (who cares about Endurance? It's easy to suck hit points from PCs...).

8. House Rules: Scrolls, potions and wands can be made, but are difficult and expensive to purchase. Characters cannot make permanent magic items using the rules in DMG. Characters acquire magic items through conquest or patronage only.

9. Everyone's seemed to overlook my favourite spell-buffing feat - Energy Substitution (sonic). Half the creatures in the MM are fire-resistant, anything with a template has enregy resistances up the wazoo; almost nothing is immune or resistant to sonic attacks.

Cheers AK

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

7. House Rules: Bull's Strength and Cat's Grace are grossly disproportionate in power to all other 2nd level spells. IMC they have a duration of 1/min per level - enough for one combat, but not more (who cares about Endurance? It's easy to suck hit points from PCs...).
Cheers AK

Where on earth do you get this idea? Are you assuming multiple empowers on top of the spells? Otherwise, as I see it:

Bull's strength: approximately +1.5 to hit, +2 to damage (increased slightly to account for 2 handed weapons).

Cat's Grage: +1.5 to hit with ranged or finessed weapons, +1.5 to armor class (assuming max dex bonus not reached), +1.5 to reflex saves.

Melf's Acid Arrow: 5 points of damage/round, 1 round/3 levels

Flaming Sphere: Assuming 75% save failure 5.25 dmg/round, 1 round/level

Glitterdust: Good tactical application for revealing invisible creatures, +2 to hit, no dex bonus, sneak attack enabled on a failed save. Enemy has 50% miss chance and can't use targetted spells.

Blindness/Deafness: +2 to hit, no dex bonus, sneak attack enabled on a failed save. Enemy has 50% miss chance and can't use targetted spells.

I really don't see the advantage that the buffs are supposed to possess if they are only effective for one fight. (Sure, save percentages go down as levels go up but characters who need them are also more likely to have strength and dex enhancing items which make the buffs redundant).

A single casting of a buff needs to be good for 2 or 3 combats to inflict as much average damage as either flaming sphere or Melf's Acid Arrow. And the non-damaging second level sor/wiz spells can change the course of a battle. At one hour per level, attribute buff spells seem to be effective 2nd level spells because they can be precast and often effect more than one combat. At 1min/level, they seem like they'd be more appropriate at 1st level. (They'd be better than magic weapon but not as good as Divine Favor, Mage Armor, bless, magic missile, or shield).

 

[Simulacrum]

Cool post above:
Still, most people don't think about polymorphing and similar magic "in-game". as some people found out correctly, with PO you can instantly*kill* someone with it *nearly*.
Now that should make people think twice before letting a wizard polymorphing them...one day he could just polymorph you into a hamster and crush you under his shoe!
PC's should fear such magic, your job as a DM is to make it clear to the Players that this is a powerful tool that awakens the deepst fears in aPC.
But many spells start doing things at 4th level that are much worse....
But can't these spellls all be countered by clever enemy?
PO allows a save, and most fighter types and clerics are very likely to save the spell if they dont fight a highup Transmuter Red Wizard. Even then counterspelling and Dispelling are easy options to save the day.
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Haste is good, still so easily countered.
My experience as DM is that wizards are not as effektive as they used to be until they reach very high level.
- Monsters (tuned monster even more) have much more hitpoints.
- Most monsters (Outsiders, dragons, shapech, elemt) have the best saves available
-----------
A wizard generaly has a very hard time in third edition.
Thats why Planar Binding is a high risk for the mage.
If a wizards calls a red abishai he and he is not at least 12th level he will get killed by the abishai the second he looks away.
Even worse are horrors like: Nabasu....
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Don't allow a party to team up in Metagame type of way. If they start to know each others powers too good, and coordinate combat like they had godly insight of what happens, it allways starts to look like the buff spells are to blame.
No it's the DM and the players themselves who are to blame!
I disallow any metagame communication about the powers a player has, in combat only realistic combat decision are allowed.
In general people lose sight of each other when it gets hot.
Even more when buffs come into play:

- half the party invisible?? Oh to bad for them, as they cant see each other too!
- Blink, Displacement, Haste makes you hard to look at..doesnt it?
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I hate it when people start arguing in combat, standing several dozens of feet apart like: oh I got only 10 HP left can someone come to heal me?
Or PC's telling each other what spells they cast even when they can't really see each other nor talk with each other!
Then teaming up always in the perfect moment to change tactics ín a raging battle even when fighting 10 Monster at the same time commanding troops, and can perfectly listen to other at the same time...*lol* how poor.
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If you get all that cut, (we play with very small avatars on huge detailed maps) buff spells become what they are:
useful little spells that can be undone quickly:
-the player starts to know this and will be much more cautious.
-much less effective in combat
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Better than that they dont know each other that well, how can a fighter know how many spells a wizard can cast etc..? impossible.
Knowing how blatantly you risk your hide when you let a wizard polymorph you makes you think twice if you really want that.
Start seeing D&D *in-game* and roleplay stuff.
If you let the players Metagame and outhink their characters you'll allways get the feeling of something being wrong with the game!
Spells and magic are the best example. keep that in check and remind the players that there is no such thing as Metagaming while you are in command.
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Another nice thing is to reduce the possibilities to get healed at churches. Seeing clerics as universal healing maschines who think they are ultimate good doers is ridiculous. Faiths should be very elitist and even a LG faith shouldn't be abused foolishly, even them can do harsh justice upon you.
Just let them hear some wrong doing...even if it was a little one, and make them pissed off etc....!
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Remember DO NOT allow blatant metagaming. If the PC's where actual pesons they wouldnt tell each other . They wouldn't even trust each other (unless perhaps they would be ALL LG +brainwashed) entirely.
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Keep it real. Biggest mistake made by most DM's.

 

[ashockney]

Intersting points made above, and really good advice. One caveat to Simulacrum, this is cool, especially at lower levels, but is only a "minor" drain on a party's resources, once they get to a certain level. And, as you suggested, the advantages of coordinated attacks is a must-have. Why wouldn't you put resources into this, if if wasn't available to you? It does help keep the party "together" at lower levels, however.

Much of the advice is as I expected, since this is how I've had to contend with the high level hijinx in two campaigns I've run. Keep in mind now that my party isn't interested in a ton of political intrigue and roleplaying stuff. That's great for you, but not what my group likes.

I do think, overall, that this helps to support the arguement that buff spells/magic enhancement items" seem to have a dramatic effect on the game. So much so, that he probably needs to rule-0 them, or adapt all the creatures his party fights to be equipped to contend with this capability. This is particularly relevant when you consider that MONSTERS ARE INCAPABLE OF CHALLENGING A WELL RUN GROUP OUT OF THE Monster Manual. Is this a problem from 1st - 10th level? Nope, not really. But once you start to go above 10th level, you'll be hard pressed to find a good challenge, you can run from the MM that will challenge a high level party.

As a side note, is this post whining, or respectfully sharing opinions to improve the game not just for yourself, but for everyone, and possibly have a positive influence on the next edition of the game? I'd say the latter, until someone calls you a "whiner." Then you've simply stopped being respectful of someone else's opinion.

For Apsuman who wondered about how two PC's took down a CR 20 dragon? I'll tell you who they were, and how they did it. Not really anything special about it. They are both 18th level, one is a Monk/Shiba Protector and the other is a Druid. The Druid had an BUFFED UP COMPANION Bear which was AWAKENED, CLASSED, MAGIC FANGED, ENDURANCED, and wore a STR enhancement item. The Monk was BUFFED with STR, DEX, CON, and WIS BUFFS, as well as MAGIC FANG, MAGICAL FLIGHT, and RESISTANCE and LUCK items that helped out his REF saving throw. The DRUID was BUFFED with CON and WIS Buffs, as well as MOVEMENT(fly) BUFFs, and ELEMENTAL RESISTANCE BUFFS GALORE.

The party had an item to "summon" the dragon to them, but had no idea that it was a dragon...only that there would be a fight, so they could be prepared. The dragon was also prepared (12 buff spells cast on himself, as a 13th Sorc). Init: Monk, Dragon, Bear, Druid. Monk...attacks! Catching the dragon a bit off guard, this guy is a melee machine, and when buffed out can deal damage with any fighter. (Approx +40 to hit, 1d12+1d4+8 for six or seven attacks a round). He can fairly easily deal 100+ damage per round, but has a tough time hitting my 50 AC initially. Dragon breathes and attacks. Monk EVADES with a BUFFED up REF save, no damage. Druid has elemental resistance BUFF, no damage. Bear misses save, takes the damage and the brunt of the dragon's melee assault, but giggles since his hit points are so BUFFED that he's only down to about half hit points. The Bear/Barbarian mauls, he's as bad as the monk. Druid casts Greater Dispelling at 18th level, vs. the Dragon's 13th level, and rips down 10 of the 12 buffs up, and follows up with a Miasma. Uh, oh. The monk rips the dragon a new one. The dragon smelling a rout brewing, munches on the Bear with his bite (improved grab), and takes off. Both the monk and druid already had flight, and take off after him. The dragon (un-buffed) and monk (buffed) go at it for two more rounds, but the monk is making quick work of the Dragon's new lowered AC for massive damage, while the Monk's buffed out AC (from Dex and Wis buffs stacking togther) is off the charts, and actually somewhat tough to hit. Thanks to his CON buff, the monk has no problem taking the damage the dragon can dish.

Splash down! It took them approximately four rounds to dole out or dispel the 640 (buffed) hit points the dragon had. Yikes!

 

[Iku Rex]

Now that should make people think twice before letting a wizard polymorphing them...one day he could just polymorph you into a hamster and crush you under his shoe!

If a fellow party member wants to kill you and doesn't care who knows, there is very little you can do about it.

Do PCs in your campaign refuse to sleep in case the rogue suddenly decides he doesn't like them anymore? Do they refrain from accepting buff spells, since once they voluntarily fail their save the spellcaster can easily slip in a save-or-die spell (or polymorph other)? Unless you are doing an all CE campaign, the PCs should trust each other.

Haste is good, still so easily countered.

Haste is "easily" countered? That's news.

A wizard generaly has a very hard time in third edition.

You don't know what you're talking about.

If they start to know each others powers too good, and coordinate combat like they had godly insight of what happens, it allways starts to look like the buff spells are to blame.
No it's the DM and the players themselves who are to blame!

PCs typically spend months - sometimes even years - with little other company than their fellow party members. These are people so obsessed with fighting that they have invested their lives to becoming the best at what they do. Their gear alone can often be enough to buy a small kingdom.

But in your campaign, they don't know each others abilities. They never discuss tactics. Don't they care about that? How "in character".

It looks to me like you're more concerned with making DnD a strategy game for the players than letting the PCs make in-character decisions.

Better than that they dont know each other that well, how can a fighter know how many spells a wizard can cast etc..? impossible.

"Regdar?" "Yes, Miale?" "I can cast 12 spells". "OK. Nice to know."

See? Not so impossible at all.

Start seeing D&D *in-game* and roleplay stuff.



And I'm still waiting for the information on countering dispel magic...

 

[Victim]

Well, considering that the dragon can fly at 200, and the monk can only fly at 90, I'm suprised the monk was able to attack the flying dragon so effectively. First round, the dragon moves 200, and the monk double moves for 180 and follows with a partial charge. Then the dragon double moves away, and monk can't catch him.

But really, I'd expect a CR 20 creature to go down to a pair of 18th level guys and an awakened animal companion.

However, you also point out the problems of relying on buffs. Once the dragon had been dispeled, it was much more vulnerable and had more difficulty attacking.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Well, I guess starting out it's worth noting that it was really two characters and an NPC that took down the dragon. When animal companions are awakened, they are no longer animal companions but remain favorably disposed to the PC if he treated them well before they were awakened. The point is that it's a party of three 18th level characters (assuming that the bear barbarian was somewhere around level 18 after ECL and all that is figured in.) Now if you take a party of average party level 18 (APL) and subtract one for having fewer than 4 characters, that's still APL 17. Even then, the dragon is only 3 CRs above their EL so they could be expected to take the dragon down in a tough fight.

It's also worth noting that the PCs start out with a very major advantage over the dragon by possessing an item that summons it right next to them. A dragon's best tactic in this kind of situation is usually fly-by attacks (particularly if he uses snatch on the druid), hover (with the resultant blindness) and such in order to prevent anyone from getting full attacks on him. By starting the fight at 5' step range, the dragon is definitely in a suboptimal tactical position.

A few questions I had about :

"Dragon's New Lowered AC for massive damage" This isn't a core rule is it? As a house rule, I imagine lowering AC for taking massive damage would work out to the PCs' disadvantage more often than no but in this case the added element of chance seems to have worked in their favor.

"Druid's Elemental Resistance Buffs"? Did he just say "there are 5 energy types and I don't know which, if any, will apply so I'll case Protection from elements once for each energy type"?

"Monk's Damage: 1d12+1d4+8"--where's the 1d4 from? Are you allowing dirty fighting damage on all of the monk's attacks? Or is it a magic item of some kind?

"Druid casts. . . and follows up with a miasma" Ordinarily I'd say that this was the problem right here--Miasma is broken--but it doesn't appear to have impacted the fight at all. . . .

 

[apsuman]

I also have a few questions:

Was the dragon summoned ala magic poof! and he is there or was he summoned as he was urged to go to location X? Because if it was the latter, I would really expect that the monk would not be able to get close. AoOs should soften up the monk before he lands a fist.

In either even the best thing the dragon could have done was place distance between him and the party. Even if the magic item required him to fight the party staying 200 feet distant and using fly-by attacks would be the best way handle this fight. Snatch, too, would be good.


g!

 

[Elric]

"Dragon's New Lowered AC for massive damage" This isn't a core rule is it? As a house rule, I imagine lowering AC for taking massive damage would work out to the PCs' disadvantage more often than no but in this case the added element of chance seems to have worked in their favor.

No, what he meant was that the monk was able to inflict large amounts of damage on the dragon after the dragon's AC went down from the lack of buff spells. He was using massive to mean lots, not 50. Personally, I am wondering why the Monk did so little damage (compared to what he could have). Did he have Greater Magic Fang cast on his fists? Also, he could probably have fought more effectively in some polymorphed form (like Stone Giant of the like). I guess since you only have a druid you don't really have access to many buff spells, but even Animal Shapes (Dire Bear) would probably have improved your damage a lot.

 

[ashockney]

Yeah, that's a sad thing about this combat, was that three of the other party members weren't even there! They could have gotten even more buffed up!

The dragon gets summoned to them for "roleplaying" purposes. Long story...bottom line, bam, there he is. They didn't know what he was going to be, but they were all pissed off about what "the thing on the other end" had done to them.

ER buffs on the druid: some were from items, some were from spells vs. the different types, and he had some kind of "energy buffer" spell from one of the splatbooks up.

The miasma (which I'm going to rule-0) did have a small impact on the combat b/c I could have at least had a shot at getting a Greater Dispelling spell off on them, even though I would have had a bad shot to dispel 13th vs. 18th.

Yeah, I totally forgot the Monk's fists were GMF'd as well so it was more like 1d12+1d4+12. Man, he's vicious with all those attacks. The 1d4 is either from his prestige class or from some OA feat he took. (I'm ballparking here, you get the picture.)

Ok, the bear was a "big" throw in, but it's still only 2 of the 5 guys sitting at the table. The encounter was intended to challenge all five. Yeah, right. The dire bear only had about 3 levels of Barb. Probably remotely close to an ECL 14 - 18. Animal Growth didn't hurt here.

Oh, and the druid has some kind of "Spirit of the Wolf" conversion from EQ Druids that works something like Expeditious Retreat that they used to pace the Dragon's flight.

Anyway, you get the picture. Buffs make a big difference.