Are Buff Spells Overpowered?
- Thread starter Elric
- Start date
Magic Rub
First Post
Elric said:
Soon we'll all see threads like this...
Character Classes overpowered because of... I think Kreynolds has done this one it was funny before it got moved
( 
) Stats are overpowered because of...
PrC's are overpowered because of...
All magic is overpowered because of...
All Feats are overpowered because of...
Skills are overpowered because of...
Dice are overpowered because of...
Mini's are overpowered because of...
The PHB is overpowered because of...
Ect. ect. ect. (my stupid point is made)
Also possible are the full range of "Unballanced" threads, Just replace "Overpowered" in the above thread titles with "Unballanced" & again my point is made.
Last edited:
To everyone that posted to this thread:
Have you ever DM'd a 15th level party (or higher) that is buffed?
(As illustrated in my earlier post, or worse with "empowered buff spells")
Just curious how the party didn't roll over EVERY creature in the Monster Manual?
Don't turn me over to the BADD police, but I've had two players take down a CR20 Blue Dragon before... 2 players.
Have you ever DM'd a 15th level party (or higher) that is buffed?
(As illustrated in my earlier post, or worse with "empowered buff spells")
Just curious how the party didn't roll over EVERY creature in the Monster Manual?
Don't turn me over to the BADD police, but I've had two players take down a CR20 Blue Dragon before... 2 players.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
Simulacrum said:
I don't know about that. Most dragons in D&D can talk and even cast spells as sorcerors (presumably with verbal, somatic and material components--just like sorcerors). Given that this is the case, it would appear that their claws close enough to hands that they're able to cast spells. And their voice is close enough to a human to be able to cast spells.
I'd imagine that after having polymorphed into a dragon a few times, you have a pretty good idea about the form's physical properties too.
Now, I'll grant that your equipment wouldn't work like it will in Stone Giant form but polymorphing into a dragon in no way prevents spellcasting.
I DM for a group with characters between 10th and 15th level. With a sorc15 and cleric13. Buffs aren't overpowered.
But they don't fight very much straight out of the MM these days. Class levels and templates are essential, as well as NPCs. I find scry and teleport to be much harder to work around than buff spells.
In a fight, the sorceress typically does a haste, followed by Imp. invis. Then she does a fly and either starts with the chain lightnings and disintegrates or does haste/bulls/imp invis on the other characters as needed.
The cleric of the group if need be will go ethereal and cast a few Buffs if we are facing a hard fight.
Here's a few tips
- Dispel, dispel, dispel! Throw DM at them. Even if you don't take them down completly, killing some buffs is better than none.
- Find the holes in their strategies. I nearly had a TPK because the evil wizard was standing in a tent casting through a project image spell. Just didn't occur to them until half the party was dead.
- Multiple fights. Don't let them blow their wad in one large battle. Stretch it out.
- Time pressure. Make them achieve their goals within a certain time frame. Don't let them go back and sleep to make sure they have all their buffs.
- Give them obstacles that they can't just kill. Stop a flood, feed a hungry kingdom, discover who framed roger rabbit.
But they don't fight very much straight out of the MM these days. Class levels and templates are essential, as well as NPCs. I find scry and teleport to be much harder to work around than buff spells.
In a fight, the sorceress typically does a haste, followed by Imp. invis. Then she does a fly and either starts with the chain lightnings and disintegrates or does haste/bulls/imp invis on the other characters as needed.
The cleric of the group if need be will go ethereal and cast a few Buffs if we are facing a hard fight.
Here's a few tips
- Dispel, dispel, dispel! Throw DM at them. Even if you don't take them down completly, killing some buffs is better than none.
- Find the holes in their strategies. I nearly had a TPK because the evil wizard was standing in a tent casting through a project image spell. Just didn't occur to them until half the party was dead.
- Multiple fights. Don't let them blow their wad in one large battle. Stretch it out.
- Time pressure. Make them achieve their goals within a certain time frame. Don't let them go back and sleep to make sure they have all their buffs.
- Give them obstacles that they can't just kill. Stop a flood, feed a hungry kingdom, discover who framed roger rabbit.
ruleslawyer
Registered User
Thanks, Plane Sailing and hong, for saving me from having to reply.
PO is a mess because it provides MASSIVE potential stat buffs, natural armor, and all sorts of other nifty abilities, is PERMANENT until dispelled, AND functions perfectly fine as the officially lowest-level single-save insta-kill spell to boot. Just too versatile for its level, IMHO, even with the T&B errata.
ashockney: I run a party of 4 21st-level characters (a party of 1e adventurers converted to 2e, thence to 3e). Luckily enough, the party wizard hasn't realized the virtues of poly other as a party-buffing spell in 3e. Instead, he favors a combination of charm and polymorph to create courier pegasi and various other annoying stuff.
As for buff spells: Well, yes, all my PCs walk around under the effects of ability-buffing spells, but so do the monsters, quite often. Dragons especially are ferocious this way, since they often have both clerical and sorcerous buffs from which to choose. I do use my house rule (see p.1), so the buffs aren't giving anyone more than +4 to a stat. Even so, this works fine. Moreover, my spellcasters tend to be reluctant to waste all their spells on buffing (invisibility, see invisibility, and detect thoughts all being rather integral to combat success), so generally only the fighter-types get the Strength buffs, two PCs get Con buffs, and one or two PCs gets a Dex buff. Not a huge problem. The problem arises when the PCs go out and take the Leadership feat and create simulacra in order to generate an army of loyal cohorts who'll cast these spells on them in droves!
In summary: No, my PCs don't walk all over the monsters. In all honesty, their buffs aren't doing much to decide success or failure in combat; the one exception is haste, for which I'm still looking for a house rule.
PO is a mess because it provides MASSIVE potential stat buffs, natural armor, and all sorts of other nifty abilities, is PERMANENT until dispelled, AND functions perfectly fine as the officially lowest-level single-save insta-kill spell to boot. Just too versatile for its level, IMHO, even with the T&B errata.
ashockney: I run a party of 4 21st-level characters (a party of 1e adventurers converted to 2e, thence to 3e). Luckily enough, the party wizard hasn't realized the virtues of poly other as a party-buffing spell in 3e. Instead, he favors a combination of charm and polymorph to create courier pegasi and various other annoying stuff.
As for buff spells: Well, yes, all my PCs walk around under the effects of ability-buffing spells, but so do the monsters, quite often. Dragons especially are ferocious this way, since they often have both clerical and sorcerous buffs from which to choose. I do use my house rule (see p.1), so the buffs aren't giving anyone more than +4 to a stat. Even so, this works fine. Moreover, my spellcasters tend to be reluctant to waste all their spells on buffing (invisibility, see invisibility, and detect thoughts all being rather integral to combat success), so generally only the fighter-types get the Strength buffs, two PCs get Con buffs, and one or two PCs gets a Dex buff. Not a huge problem. The problem arises when the PCs go out and take the Leadership feat and create simulacra in order to generate an army of loyal cohorts who'll cast these spells on them in droves!
In summary: No, my PCs don't walk all over the monsters. In all honesty, their buffs aren't doing much to decide success or failure in combat; the one exception is haste, for which I'm still looking for a house rule.
