Are CRPGs really role-playing games?

[Raven Crowking]

I wouldn't argue that they tried to provide a similar play experience. Final Fantasy had the 4 man party, basically made up of the fighter, rogue, mage, and cleric (with possible substitutions of monks and fighter/mages for any of the above). It had mind flayers, Law vs. Chaos, and all kinds of things that were inspired directly by D&D.

But, I don't see that as making it any more a "simulation of a roleplaying game" as Tunnels & Trolls is a "simulation of a roleplaying game" because it was inspired by D&D.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/simulation:

"the representation of the behavior or characteristics of one system through the use of another system, esp. a computer program designed for the purpose."

 

[ThirdWizard]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/simulation:

"the representation of the behavior or characteristics of one system through the use of another system, esp. a computer program designed for the purpose."

Except it isn't representing anywhere near how D&D is actually played, its representing the same thing that D&D is representing.

Lets say we call Battleship a simulation of naval warfare. It isn't a really good simulation but it should work for the example. Now lets say that Yahoo! Games creates a knockoff of Battleship calling it something like "Naval Command."

Is "Naval Command" a simulation of a simulation of naval warfare? Or is it a simulation of naval warfare? Are the people playing it pretending to play a game or are they actually playing a game? I would call it a simulation of naval warfare myself. Now, if you were controlling a person who was playing Battleship, and you had to direct the person's decisions in his game, then maybe we're getting into a simulation of a simulation of naval warfare. But, not before that.

So until there's a game where you're controlling the Players of a P&P RPG, influencing their decisions, and not roleplaying yourself but actually encouraging some digital person (who you don't pretend to be, mind you!) to roleplay, then you aren't simulating a simulation of a roleplaying game.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Acting may be role-playing, but it is not a game. If some people get together & act out scripted parts under the guise of an RPG, that doesn't make it an RPG.

Some old WEG Star Wars modules used to start with totally scripted intros, like reading out parts in a play.

 

[Grog]

EDIT: BTW, your wiki definitions include "The earliest CRPGs were inspired by early role-playing games, especially Dungeons and Dragons, and attempted to provide a similar play experience." That would seem to bolster my claim that they were simulations of the games they attempted to provide a similar game experience to, IMHO.

They may have provided a similar play experience, but if so, it was only to one particular style of D&D campaign - the "hack and slash" campaign. There was no role-playing in the Wizardry games, or the Gold Box games.

The only electronic games that I'd call role-playing games are Star Wars: KotOR, Planescape: Torment, and the Fallouts.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Except it isn't representing anywhere near how D&D is actually played, its representing the same thing that D&D is representing.

"The earliest CRPGs were inspired by early role-playing games, especially Dungeons and Dragons, and attempted to provide a similar play experience."

"Simulation: The representation of the behavior or characteristics of one system through the use of another system, esp. a computer program designed for the purpose."

EDIT: Just to be perfectly clear, this is put together as "The earliest CRPGs were inspired by early role-playing games, especially Dungeons and Dragons, and attempted to represent a similar play experience through the use of a computer program designed for the purpose."

"Grasping At Straws: Trying to find some way to succeed when nothing you choose is likely to work."


RC

 

[ThirdWizard]

"The earliest CRPGs were inspired by early role-playing games, especially Dungeons and Dragons, and attempted to provide a similar play experience."

"Simulation: The representation of the behavior or characteristics of one system through the use of another system, esp. a computer program designed for the purpose."

EDIT: Just to be perfectly clear, this is put together as "The earliest CRPGs were inspired by early role-playing games, especially Dungeons and Dragons, and attempted to represent a similar play experience through the use of a computer program designed for the purpose."

"Grasping At Straws: Trying to find some way to succeed when nothing you choose is likely to work."

You're missing the point. Here's some examples:

Golf: You swing a club and try to hit a ball into a hole.
Golf Video Game: You control a guy who swings a club and tries to hit a ball into a hole.

Baseball: You try to hit the ball and run around bases.
Baseball Video Game: You control a team of guys who try to hit the ball and run around bases.

P&P RPG: You control a guy who adventures.
CRPG: You control a guy who adventures.
P&P RPG Simulation: You control a guy who controls a guy who adventures.

Note how no CRPG I've ever heard of has fallen into the "P&P RPG Simulation" category.

Inspired by has nothing to do with "simulating." And, because many simulations exist on computers in no way implies that everything done on computers is a simulation of something else. It might be simulating in the sense that what you see is not really there (like a TV would be simulating whatever the camera was looking at) but that is quite different.

 

[Doug McCrae]

The word simulation is normally used for representations of aspects of the real world. We talk about flight sims, traffic sims and climate sims. Computer chess and scrabble aren't called sims, probably because they're for all intents and purposes identical to the physical version. A person might say that computer chess isn't really chess, but that would be purely down to the medium, not the capability.

Due to the graphical and sound elements a video game can give you a much greater feeling of immersion, a feeling that you're experiencing what it's like to be an adventurer. I rember feeling intense excitement when I'd first enter a cavern in Morrowind. Given that, it seems deeply odd to call a crpg a simulation of a simulation when if anything it's closer to the fictitious subject matter than the tabletop version.

Crpgs do combat, action, pictures and sound better. Human rpgs do talking better.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Crpgs do combat, action,...better.

I disagree on that. You are still limited by exactly what the programmers let you do. A great combat with a good DM beats the heck out of anything I've seen from a computer.

 

[Raven Crowking]

RPG: You control a character.
CRPG: You simulate control of a character, whose parameters of choice are actually controlled (regulared; dominated) by one or more programmers.

Control: "(v) to exercise restraint or direction over; dominate; command; the act or power of controlling; regulation; domination or command: Who's in control here?"

"The earliest CRPGs were inspired by early role-playing games, especially Dungeons and Dragons, and attempted to provide a similar play experience."

"Simulation: The representation of the behavior or characteristics of one system through the use of another system, esp. a computer program designed for the purpose."

Together, "The earliest CRPGs were inspired by early role-playing games, especially Dungeons and Dragons, and attempted to represent a similar play experience through the use of a computer program designed for the purpose."


Flight: You fly a plane.
Flight Simulator: You fly a simulated plane.

There is no need for you to control another "person" between you and the simulation for something to be a simulation.

 

[Kaodi]

.hack is the only game (series) I have ever heard of that is really multi-layered. Your real character is essentially a person who plays a MMORPG that is tied to events happening in their " real " lives.