Pathfinder 1E Are demons and devils too similar?

[Savage Wombat]

The difference between demons and devils is really only important if you care about (a) classic D&D alignment and (b) the Outer Planes as the results of that alignment.

If you have planar creatures as exemplars of their alignments, then demons and devils are almost as different as night and day. Because they have to be, to make sense in that role.

But if your only concern is that they are evil, and from another world - demons and devils are both alien, spellcasting semi-humanoids with far-reaching agendas.

So it's not surprising that, if you throw the planes out the window, the distinction between the two is muddled.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I have no problem distinguishing between LE Devils and CE Demons. NE Daemons are a bit more difficult, but I can totally see them as infernal mercenaries... And I love then Blood War, etc.

And while I prefer my D&D Infernals that way, I can totally see them handled in a way akin to the way DarkSun handled undead- a few general rules, but with a lot of customizability.

 

[Voadam]

I really like the 4e distinctions and background for demons and devils.

I like the background stories of corrupted elementals and cursed fallen angels and the characterization of demons as bestial destruction driven creatures with devils being more humanoid with other motivations. I also really like demons variable resistance over electricity immunity and cold iron vulnerability.

Unfortunately the majority of devils were still bestial in fact in 4e and several demons used weapons and had humanoid appearances. Balors and pit fiends are tough to distinguish on these grounds. In practice this only really meant that succubi became tempting devils instead of demons and the humanoid looking demon lord Grazzt got his background switched to be a former archdevil corrupted by his invasion of the abyss.

Before 4e I conceptualized demons and devils as elementals of their respective alignments, which kind of works but the specifics get a bit messy.

 

[Charles Wright]

I really, really disliked what 4E did to the inner and outer planes. To me there is a world of difference between Demons, Devils, Daemons/Yugoloths, and the heretofore unmentioned Demodands.

The main difference being in how they spread evil. Devils corrupt, Demons destroy, Daemons/Yugoloths... the best concept I've seen for them is that they strive to bring about an apocalypse and each works for one of the ubiquitous horsemen. As for Demodands, well, they mostly stay in Tarterus and you only need to worry about them if you go there.

Does there need to be a difference for the casual adventurer? No, and most of them never care more about it than "exorcise it with extreme prejudice". That's fine. But I do like the lore that is in place, and if you're going to run a campaign that traipses through the lower planes it offers variety among the enemies and how you can deal with them as a player.

 

[Hussar]

It's no secret that I think they should be given greater differentiation. An encounter with a demon should be like dancing with a force of nature - a really pissed off one at that. An encounter with a devil should be more like something you'd see with Crowley in Supernatural - yep, he can pull out your spleen, but, it's usually going to involve a lot more talking than that.

I look at it this way. A town is invaded by a demon. Unchecked, by the end of things, the demon is sitting atop a smoking pile of rubble and skulls snacking on a thighbone. He doesn't try to get you to sell your soul, he bloody well rips the soul from your dying corpse and eats it, growing stronger in the process. It's like a very malevolent typhoon just sat on the town.

OTOH, if a devil sets up shop, unchecked, the town will continue for decades with the corrupted townsfolk actively, and eventually willingly, aiding the devil in his unholy sacrifices. The devil will actively defend that town as a source of his mojo. Anyone coming to the town to rid the people of evil will find themselves fighting the very people they are trying to save.

IMO, that's the baseline to start with. If the creature seems more like the first one, it's a demon. If it's like the second, then it's a devil.

 

[Charles Wright]

Also, as far as I'm concerned, if something is a being of elemental destruction, then they're simply an evil elemental. No need to shoehorn that into the whole "D"-bacle of Outer Planar Evil.

 

[Dungeoneer]

Different system, but perhaps relevant to this topic: the new 13th Age book, "13 True Ways", has extensive material about Devils. Demons were already a major force in the Dragon Empire setting, so the book has to address the question of where Devils fit and how they are different. There are some nice twists on the classic "Demons destroy/Devils corrupt and make bargains" dichotomy.

Here is a representative bit:

Although devils vary between campaigns, they need to retain certain key elements to feel like they fit the name. Some of these derive from mythology, while others come from timehonored fantasy gaming tradition. Devils:
• Come from somewhere unearthly.
• Embody evil, or at least one particular flavor of it.
• Act through stealth, calculation, and guile.
• Covertly interfere in mortal affairs.
• Respect power and hierarchy—theirs, if no one else’s.
• Are clearly distinguishable from demons. Or are at least arguably distinct. Or could at least have that argument made by a determined grognard.
• Have horns.

 

[Hussar]

For me, it's the covert vs overt thing that I see as the distinguishing element. As I said, a demon infestation is a (un)natural disaster. A devil coming is an assimilation.

 

[Cadence]

It's no secret that I think they should be given greater differentiation. An encounter with a demon should be like dancing with a force of nature - a really pissed off one at that. An encounter with a devil should be more like something you'd see with Crowley in Supernatural - yep, he can pull out your spleen, but, it's usually going to involve a lot more talking than that.

...

IMO, that's the baseline to start with. If the creature seems more like the first one, it's a demon. If it's like the second, then it's a devil.

That sounds about right to me.

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PF seems to start off in that direction... "Where their more lawful counterparts, the devils of Hell, seek to twist mortal minds and values to remake and reshape them into reflections of their own evil, demons seek only to maim, ruin, and feed."

So many of the demons seem to fit with CE: "[doing] what his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction driving him to. He is vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable."

Demon, Babu: an assassin, a murderer, and a sadist
Demon, Balor: towering figure of fire and flesh, a horned nightmare armed with flaming whip and sword flying through the night in search of its latest victim.
Demon, Dretch: filled with a driving need to spread ruin
Demon, Nabasu: feed on innocent souls to mature
Demon, Vrock: embody all the rage, hatred, and violence of that despicable realm

While the devils go along with LE: "methodically [taking] what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. ... He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion."

Devil, Barbed: Sentinels of the vaults of hell..
Devil, Bearded: Elite warriors in Hell's legions
Devil, Bone: The interrogators and inquisitors...
Devil, Erinyes: Executioners, not judges
Devil, Horned: able commanders of lesser fiends
Devil, Ice: Strategists and masterminds of Hell's armies
Devil, Pit Fiend: Generals of Hell's armies and advisors to the archfiends

I think where they muck it up is with some of the demons...

Demon, Glabrezu - uses magic to grant wishes to mortals as a method of rewarding those who succumb to its guile and deceit
Demon, Marilith - governesses, advisors...brilliance as tacticians
Demon, Succubus - rise to incredible heights of power through her manipulations

These three don't seem to fit the CE where their "plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are likely to be poorly organized."

I think this ties in to [MENTION=1932]Savage Wombat[/MENTION] 's post upthread. PF seems to be trying to strongly tie demons and devils into planes and alignment... but then doesn't carry through. Would it help to just switch those three demons over to the devils column? To me, the Glabrezu and Succubus fit pretty well with how @Hussar described his view of devils operating on the prime material plane? The other devils, fit with how they would operate in the outer planes.

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And I don't really see that clear of a distinction between daemons and demons...

"While demons seek to pervert and destroy in endless unholy rampages and devils vex and enslave in hopes of corrupting morals, daemons seek only to consume mortal life itself."

"Four Horsemen... desire slaughter, ruin, and death on a cosmic scale, and drive hordes of their lesser kin to spread terror and sorrow across the planes."

And most of the descriptions seem to just be tied to different kinds of death (Astra=by negative energy drain, Ceusto=suicide, Dergho=insanity, Hydro=drowning, Leuko=plagues, Mela=starvation). Is it just that they're a bit too focused to be chaotic (only mortal life by a particular cause versus a generic rampage?)

I also don't see how their desire to "stand triumphant over cadaverous cosmoses and infinities of silence before also giving way to absolute oblivion" fits with the CRB description of NE. The NE "does whatever she can get away with... she is out for herself pure and simple".

On the other hand it seems to fit better with Jon Cogburn's description of CE in "D&D and Philosophy" were he notes it "is a path that ends in insanity and death" and "destroying everything, including herself."

So, I think I'd vote for moving the moving the daemons to the demon column.

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The NE divs also seem a bit CE to me: "While demons exist to destroy, devils year to corrupt and control, and daemons seek the death of all things, the foul beings know as divs strive to ruin and despoil all things created by mortals." But I guess they're saved from CE by "[demonstrating] the pride, affectations, and tastes of geniekind" and that they are more into planning ("foster the dooms they envision, manipulating those they hate to become masters of their own destruction")?

And then there are the CE demodands. That they are "imbued with the fickle cruelty of their masters" seems to argue for the CE. But their masters "expand their influence and holdings in the Abyss with immortal patience". That and the way they "send [those they torture] back into the world as new believers, spreading the 'true' faith of the evil titans" both seem to argue towards NE (or even LE).

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So, would it make sense to picture the Neutral Evil Abaddon as a place caught between the armies of hell (devils) and hordes of the abyss (demons and daemons) with its own native Divs and Deomdands who follow their own goals and desires, unbound by a hierarchy and not seeking random destruction?

 

[Savage Wombat]

And this is where we need Shemeska to drop in and lay the PS details out for us.