D&D 5E Are "evil gods" necessary? [THREAD NECRO]

[EzekielRaiden]

Then another would just rise to take his or her place. The gods are like forces of nature and/or belief. If you create a vacuum, it will be eventually be filled. It might be instantaneous or it might take a few years/decades, but another would come.

Does each god only manifest a single force of nature, belief, or concept? Because I can see where one could argue that that's what is often desired. That the god of murder is also the god of, say, the hunt--it's all hunting to her, whether it's hunting sapient beings or merely hunting animals. "The most dangerous game," as the saying goes. Or that the sun god is also the god of death (since the sun dies every day, only to be reborn the next day, or whatever.)

 

[Maxperson]

On further reflection, I’ve been thinking of gods largely as objects of worship, but there’s certainly a case for gods as objects of fear. Maybe “Good” gods could be viewed as the entities you make sacrifices to in prayer for favorable outcomes, while “evil” gods are the ones you make sacrifices to in hopes of appeasing, to avoid some unfavorable outcome. But I think I would still prefer most if not all gods to have aspects of both. You pray to the sky god for fair weather but also appease him to avoid being smote by lightning. You pray to the agricultural god for good harvest but also appease her to avoid drought. You pray to the warrior god for victory but also appease him to avoid being raided or conquered. You pray to the underworld god both to protect the souls of your loved ones but also appease her in hopes she doesn’t come for yours yet. Etc.

That's kinda how polytheism works. You pray to and worship the goddess of fertility for a healthy baby, but fear and appease the god of storms so that he doesn't sink you while you sail across the sea to trade.

 

[Maxperson]

Does each god only manifest a single force of nature, belief, or concept? Because I can see where one could argue that that's what is often desired. That the god of murder is also the god of, say, the hunt--it's all hunting to her, whether it's hunting sapient beings or merely hunting animals. "The most dangerous game," as the saying goes. Or that the sun god is also the god of death (since the sun dies every day, only to be reborn the next day, or whatever.)

There can be multiple portfolios, but they'd generally be associated somehow. Murder, death and entropy for example. You wouldn't see entropy and fertility under the same god.

 

[Charlaquin]

That's kinda how polytheism works. You pray to and worship the goddess of fertility for a healthy baby, but fear and appease the god of storms so that he doesn't sink you while you sail across the sea to trade.

Yeah, that’s what I’m saying. I prefer D&D gods to work like actual polytheism, instead of the weird sort of quasi-monolatrism typically seen in D&D.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

There can be multiple portfolios, but they'd generally be associated somehow. Murder, death and entropy for example. You wouldn't see entropy and fertility under the same god.

Well, what about something like fertility and death? Dead things are essential for making nutritious new soil. Similarly the creation/destruction duo is a pretty common one even in IRL religions because by creating something, you usually had to break down or consume materials, and we often create other new things by destroying something that already exists. (Or things like kintsukuroi where you repair something that was broken, and in so doing, make it beautiful.)

Likewise, IRL deities have included stuff like Aphrodite Areia, "Warlike Aphrodite," who was the goddess of both beauty/love(/fertility) and war, descending from Ishtar, goddess of beauty, sex, war, political power, and divine law.

Historical gods tended to be pretty complex things, sometimes even outright contradictory. Dionysus is another example, often being both the anti-establishment madness-bringer and the pro-establishement conquering king. Hephaestus/Vulcan would be an example of the creation-and-destruction god, being associated with Mt. Etna, weapons (e.g. Zeus's thunderbolts), and destruction, but also creative arts, industry, and defense.

 

[Oofta]

I base my mythology loosely on Norse mythology with several non-human gods filling in several roles. So Odin, Thor, etc. are the Aesir (gods of humans) while elven gods led by are Vaenir, Moradin forged the weapons Gungdrin and Mjolnir for the Aesir, Garl Glittergold wove Sif's hair and so on. The evil gods are replaced by Jotun, many, but not all of the Jotun are giants so fiends of all sorts also qualify as Jotun. There is little difference though between a Jotun and a god, it's more a matter of how much they are worshipped. Getting worshippers can greatly increase a being's power, so even in Jotunheim there standard giants (fire, frost, etc.) and then there are giant gods.

Most of the Aesir are considered neutral or good, although it's more of a general descriptor than dictating all of their behavior. Odin himself I consider neutral, his alignment shifted after Baldur was killed when Loki tricked Hod. Odin is now consumed with thoughts of war and preparations for the inevitable war between the gods, Ragnarok.

So that's the high level cosmology and, yes, there are good, evil and neutral gods spanning the spectrum of alignments. Meanwhile, most lay clerics don't worship a specific god, they are just as likely to call upon Thor for rain as praying to Uller for safe passage on the ocean. Meanwhile many people respect Odin's power but also curse his name, blaming him for stirring up war so that he gets more Einherjar, soldiers to fight for the Aesir during Ragnarok. Very few people are actually called to be clerics in the character class sense.

Meanwhile, the gods gain power from their worshipers but are also shaped by the worship. Some gods now have so few worshippers that they have very little power to influence the mortal realm, but if they can gain a small cult they can regain some of their power. In other cases various fiends will start a cult in order to raise their status and power.

It's a bit black and white at times as far as alignment but it's a game. I don't treat alignment a straightjacket, it's just a descriptor and guide to their general behavior and typical alignment of people that are dedicated to that god specifically. The gods have general portfolios, but there's a lot of overlap. So I try to make it work for D&D but also a more "realistic" pantheon.

 

[jgsugden]

I think this is a matter of storytelling. How does the world in which the PCs exist view the Gods?

I have several types of powers in my setting - all of which are roughly in the 'Godly' power tier. They break down as:

1.) Ao - Essentially the incarnation of the universe.
2.) The Light and the Dark - Essentially the incarnation of Good and Evil or Life and Death.
3.) Bahamut, Tiamat and Vorel - the first three beings that manifested with behaviors and personality
4.) 61 Gods
5.) 3 Archfey
6.) 8 Archfiends (Asmodeus is counted as a God here)
7.) 12 Elder Gods
8.) 6 Demon Lords (a few of the Elder Gods also count as Demon Lords)
9.) 9 DemiGods
10.) Hundreds of 'House Gods' which are low powered Gods.

Each of these beings is described in my materials based upon the motivations, relationships and goals they have. I do not list an alignment for any of them - but if you asked the denizens of my campaign world to list the evil Gods/Powers, there would be a lot of agreement on which ones they are. Further, there are some in the setting that would drastically disagree with the common view.

An example is Asmodeus. He is the Lord of the Hells. He does anything and everything possible to put souls into his service as Devils. He is the Lord of Lies - but only in name as he has never lied himself. Most view him as the ultimate evil - but not all. There is a sect of paladins that consider themselves the most holy of knights. They serve Asmodeus loyally and with full knowledge of what he does. Why? because they recognize that he is the Leader of Light - the Highest General in the Blood War on the side that is trying to prevent the annihilation of the universe. They believe that he fell as an Angel and took hold in Hell because he was willing to do anything and everything to make sure that the Demons do not win the Blood War - and they're right in many ways. They see him as an Angelic Force forced into the most dispicable of services out of necessity - and that the evil he does is a sacrifice he makes in order to protect everyone.

While Asmodeus is the most obvious example in my setting, pretty much every God has those that see them as evil and others that see them as Good. There are majority opinions on most, and there are a few where the view is absolute and without nuance across all people of the universe, but for almost all gods there is some differing of opinion.

I've run the game this way for decades and it has served me well.

 

[cbwjm]

I have a few evil gods in my setting, one of Tyranny, one of corruption (of the natural order) and undead, one of destruction and war. Another god has an evil aspect poison and disease) and a good aspect (healing). The gods are formed into pantheons so for the main religion you have all of the good gods that have priests and temples (for the overall faith, not per god) in cities, but you'll also find dark cultists dedicated to the evil gods hidden in the shadows which I think can make for some cool events.

Plenty of other powers as well, just the gods are the most powerful. Their strength has nothing to do with worshippers and everything to do with the power of the cornerstones of reality that they have bound to themselves.

 

[Maxperson]

Well, what about something like fertility and death? Dead things are essential for making nutritious new soil. Similarly the creation/destruction duo is a pretty common one even in IRL religions because by creating something, you usually had to break down or consume materials, and we often create other new things by destroying something that already exists. (Or things like kintsukuroi where you repair something that was broken, and in so doing, make it beautiful.)

That's a little too complicated for what I'm looking for. While it's true that the death of things creates nutrients for soil, typically gods of death are for the deaths of all living things, or deaths of humans/elves/insert race here. A portfolio is more broad than a minor aspect like breaking down dead things makes soil better.

Likewise, IRL deities have included stuff like Aphrodite Areia, "Warlike Aphrodite," who was the goddess of both beauty/love(/fertility) and war, descending from Ishtar, goddess of beauty, sex, war, political power, and divine law.

Yeah. Real life mythological gods had some disparate portfolios, but I prefer the gods of my game to be a bit cleaner and have one portfolio or a few closely related ones. I wouldn't create a wisdom and war god for my game.

That's just for my game of course. I wouldn't be upset if I played in your game and you had a god with some pretty different portfolios, one god who encompassed everything, one good and one evil, etc.

 

[Clint_L]

In my campaign alignments don't exist, so Gods each have individual characteristics, motivations, etc. Some have motivations that are pretty inimical with your typical living person, so they are commonly characterized as evil. But most are pretty complex. So either Tiamat and Bahamut, for example, could be an ally or enemy depending on the situation - in my world, Bahamut is a control freak who scapegoated Tiamat, while Tiamat's indifference to the needs of mortal beings makes her highly dangerous.