D&D 5E (2014) Are "evil gods" necessary? [THREAD NECRO]

[WayOfTheFourElements]

Because D&D defines "evil" differently. In D&D terms good is putting other before yourself, evil is putting yourself before others.

A lot of the issues people have here is confusing a real world Christianity based definition of evil with the completely fantasy Gygaxian definition of evil.

D&D calls a lot of folk evil who in the real world we would simply label selfish.

How else would you define evil except for self-centrism?

 

[QuentinGeorge]

What the heck do the gods even do then? Are the Athar explicitly right?



Not sure if I'm understanding the question correctly, but the mesopotamians worshipped Pazuzu, the god of famine and locusts, in the context of him being so aggressively awful that even the other evil spirits avoided him. The idea was that when he was invoked all the other evil gods would leave

But they are getting something from that worship - protection from Lamashtu who is even worse (killing women in childbirth). That's the key difference.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Got news for you. Selfishness is evil in Christianity too.

If you follow the actual teaching of Jesus, then yes. However, I am talking about the societal influence of the religion, which has spent a couple of thousand years putting it's own spin on things, and has a multitude of examples of the so-called devout lining their pockets at the expense of others.

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

If you follow the actual teaching of Jesus, then yes. However, I am talking about the societal influence of the religion, which has spent a couple of thousand years putting it's own spin on things, and has a multitude of examples of the so-called devout lining their pockets at the expense of others.

The church is not the same as the teachings. The church is composed of flawed apes, just like every other institution.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

If you follow the actual teaching of Jesus, then yes. However, I am talking about the societal influence of the religion, which has spent a couple of thousand years putting it's own spin on things, and has a multitude of examples of the so-called devout lining their pockets at the expense of others.

There's a difference betwen "people are flawed, and corruption is everywhere" and "the theological pinnings of a religion have suddenly changed so that selfishness is now a virtue". I'll leave you to figure out which one this is.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

There's a difference betwen "people are flawed, and corruption is everywhere" and "the theological pinnings of a religion have suddenly changed so that selfishness is now a virtue". I'll leave you to figure out which one this is.

I'm not talking about theology (although there is plenty in that line written to justify selfishness, from "salvation by faith" to Papal Indulgences), I'm talking about society, which rules that eating babies and lining your own pockets are not the same kind of thing at all.

 

[Aldarc]

My game has never included Good and Evil gods.

Instead, I have two pantheons - the Gods of Order (The Architects) and the Gods of Chaos (The Madgods). The Gods of Order strive to reduce the world to a stagnant, meaningless reality, completely devoid of change and unpredictability. The are opposed by the Gods of Chaos, who struggle to destroy the laws of physics that hold the universe together and replace them with pure randomness. Both pantheons are equally and utterly inhuman (neither Good nor Evil). The inhabitable universe exists in a delicate state of equilibrium between both ideals.

Have you looked into Tekumel? It has Gods of Stability and Change. It also does religion well.

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

Have you looked into Tekumel? It has Gods of Stability and Change. It also does religion well.

Indeed it does : )

 

[prabe]

See, this here is part of the issue.

Orcus does have influence across multiple planes of existence. At a minimum he interacts with both Greyhawk and Faerun. But Kelemvor and Nerull do not, they exist only in one of those realities each.

Authority over things in the material? Orcus created Ghouls and Liches, Bodaks as well, whom he can see out of the eyes of. Yeenoghu is a massive authority over Gnolls, as is Baphomet for Minotaurs. In the same way that Gruumsh or Tiamat has authority over their children.

What is the difference between a prayer and a summons? Asmodeus isn't forced to answer you if you invoke him, which his cults do all the time. In rituals that could be seen as prayers.

Deriving something real from being worshipped? They get the souls of mortals who worship and act in their names. Being in a Devil cult is a 1-way trip to the Nine Hells.

So, they seem to fit every criteria you have for gods.

The shifting truths of the canon over nearly fifty years make these distinctions harder to make and/or keep clear. The fact I barely interacted with 2E and never did much more than skim the PHB for 4E means there are doubtless gaps in my knowledge of what the realities are and/or have been.

That said, a different way to think about it is that gawds have spheres of influence in the Material, planar rulers do not. The Demon Lords you mention (along with Lolth and Asmodeus, among others) are oddments and at least appear to straddle the boundaries; I believe errors were made in creating the canon so they do (which is part of the reason things operate differently in the world I'm running). Basically, in my view, if an entity is primarily focused on and concerned with and worshiped in the Material, that entity is a gawd; if an entity is primarily associated with and draws its powers from an Outer Plane (or a layer thereof) it isn't.

There is, I believe a qualitative difference between praying to a gawd and summoning a being from an Outer Plane to come do your bidding (or do you a favor in exchange for your soul). I'd say it has to do with the concrete expectations: If you do the ritual correctly the devil will appear; prayers are rarely guaranteed so precisely.

As to devils and souls, there's nothing in how the devils acquire the souls of mortals that requires the mortals to worship them. Most of those souls, they acquire by making deals with mortals (and as I understand it they mostly turn those souls into proto-devils to be used as fodder for the Blood War). Gawds are made more powerful by being worshiped; they don't need to store souls in some metaphorical vault.

 

[Voadam]

How else would you define evil except for self-centrism?

In terms of malice and harm.