D&D 5E Are "evil gods" necessary? [THREAD NECRO]

[Maxperson]

No they don't. Having sincere worshippers is a necessary marker of worthiness for ascension. But the rules make it clear that it is the character's divine patron, not their worshippers, that brings about the ascension.

Given that having different pantheons worshipped in different regions doesn't increase the number of worshippers (if anything, it appears to dilute that number) I take "sustain" here to mean in the sense of a coherent sense of purpose and differentiation, rather than in the sense of feeding.

Even this one refers to the connection being a mystery beyond mortal comprehension - hence presumably you and I cannot comprehend it! And what follows refers to "often", not "always".

Say what you will. Belief has been a part of how gods get their power since 1e, even if it wasn't in 100% of the cases of the 1e Deities & Demigods.

 

[Minigiant]

This is proven over and over not to be true. Even evil gods in D&D throughout the editions have lost power and "died" as they were forgotten by their worshippers and belief.

Im saying it the final death is not of being forgotten but of domain loss.

Worshippers don't keep a keep a god up. Control of their domain does. D&D gods die with mortal worshippers an strangely not small amount of times.

Worshippers help you keep your domain/portfolio.

 

[Maxperson]

Im saying it the final death is not of being forgotten but of domain loss.

Worshippers don't keep a keep a god up. Control of their domain does. D&D gods die with mortal worshippers an strangely not small amount of times.

Worshippers help you keep your domain/portfolio.

The only times I can think of where a god died while having enough worshippers(it's not enough to have them. You also have to have enough of them) to be gods is by violence. An artifact, another god or some other extraordinary means will allow a god to be killed.

 

[Minigiant]

The only times I can think of where a god died while having enough worshippers(it's not enough to have them. You also have to have enough of them) to be gods is by violence. An artifact, another god or some other extraordinary means will allow a god to be killed.

And why where these acts of violence made.

Almost every failed, successful or accidental (Karsus) attempt of the life of a D&D god who is still known by mortal is over their domain. Either it's a attempt to steal it, attempt to kick someone and their domain out the pantheon, or a full on pantheon vs pantheon war over them.

That's prize and the source.

Heck in some setting, the gods existed before there where mortals to worship them.

 

[Maxperson]

And why where these acts of violence made.

Almost every failed, successful or accidental (Karsus) attempt of the life of a D&D god who is still known by mortal is over their domain. Either it's a attempt to steal it, attempt to kick someone and their domain out the pantheon, or a full on pantheon vs pantheon war over them.

That's prize and the source.

Heck in some setting, the gods existed before there where mortals to worship them.

There are tons of dead gods that weren't killed for those reasons.

1. Bane(time of troubles)
2. Bhaal(time of troubles)
3. Myrkul(time of troubles)
4. Mystra(time of troubles)
5. Waukeen(time of troubles)
6. Tons of them in the south during the Orcgate Wars and the feuds going on between countries and pantheons.

 

[Minigiant]

There are tons of dead gods that weren't killed for those reasons.

1. Bane(time of troubles)
2. Bhaal(time of troubles)
3. Myrkul(time of troubles)
4. Mystra(time of troubles)
5. Waukeen(time of troubles)
6. Tons of them in the south during the Orcgate Wars and the feuds going on between countries and pantheons.

They weren't immortal and lacked their Divine power during the Time of Troubles.

The gods literally had their followers but not access to their domains.

That's the point. They weren't gods at the time due to their loss of divinity.

 

[Micah Sweet]

They weren't immortal and lacked their Divine power during the Time of Troubles.

The gods literally had their followers but not access to their domains.

That's the point. They weren't gods at the time due to their loss of divinity.

Although its interesting to note that, of all the gods that died there, the one Ao brought back was the one whose death was most in keeping with their portfolio (Torm, God of Duty).

 

[Alzrius]

They weren't immortal and lacked their Divine power during the Time of Troubles.

The gods literally had their followers but not access to their domains.

That's the point. They weren't gods at the time due to their loss of divinity.

That's not exactly the case. I'll quote the section on the Time of Troubles from page 15 of Faiths & Avatars (affiliate link):

The Time of Troubles

The Time of Troubles was an exception to many of the normal rules for how deities work in the Realms. During the Time of Troubles, the powers of the Realms were forced to either place all of their divine power in one mortal avatar or, if they exist on multiple planes, were forced to create avatars upon whose existence their entire future divine connections to the Realms were staked. Since the powers of the Realms were forced to stake so much on their avatars, these avatars were acutely vulnerable. While the death of an avatar did not mean the death of the power (Bane and Bhaal, at least, went through multiple avatars in succession before finally dying), powers could only maintain themselves in one avatar form and could not connect with their homes and power bases in the Outer Planes (if they had them).

However, during the Time of Troubles, the general rule that only a deity can kill anything other than a demipower was not violated. Bhaal was killed by Cyric using the sword Godsbane at Boareskyr Bridge. Godsbane was Mask in sword form (evidently an avatar form of Mask). Thus, a power killed a power.

Midnight used a disintegrate spell to kill Myrkul in Waterdeep and then used a dimension door to move the dead avatar’s body over the Sea of Swords. At the time Midnight held within her some of Mystra’s divine essence, transferred to her through a pendant in the form of Mystra’s symbol that merged with Midnight’s flesh during her travels. So, once again, although through a slightly circuitous path, a power killed a power.

Mystra died at Helm’s hand on the Celestial Staircase, trying to gain access to her home plane. Before she battled Helm, she had transferred a great deal of her power into her Chosen, Azuth, the Magister, and Elminster. As she died, she gave Midnight the pendant with some of her essence and spread the remainder of her power into the magical weave that surrounds and permeates Realmspace. Elminster was able to call back a ghost of her presence as a sort of magic elemental to kill one avatar of Bane’s, but it was not strong enough to permanently destroy him, and his essence was able to be gathered together by Myrkul and then transferred to a new avatar. Ultimately, Torm killed Bane in Tantras. Again, in the cases of Mystra and Bane, one power killed another.

Gods who were dead at the end of the Godswar were dead in the Realms unless at the end of the Time of Troubles Ao reinstated them himself, as he did for Torm. However, only deities whose only worship ties throughout the many crystal spheres were to Realmspace could have completely died. Any deity who had ties to other crystal spheres would not have ceased to exist. Ao has influence over the powers of the Realms, not the panspheric and multidimensional universe. Rather, all divine ties between that power and the Realms would have been severed. The power itself would not have been dead, but might as well have been for any inhabitant of Realmspace.

 

[Micah Sweet]

That's not exactly the case. I'll quote the section on the Time of Troubles from page 15 of Faiths & Avatars (affiliate link):

That passage is one of many reasons why I love that book and all the others like it.

 

[pemerton]

Heck in some setting, the gods existed before there where mortals to worship them.

In default 4e, the gods created mortals.

In Roger E Moore's myth of the Orcs (from Dragon magazine 62, reprinted in the original Unearthed Arcana Appendix S), the gods bring mortals into the world.

This is not an unusual or atypical element of the D&D cosmology.