Are fighters that specialize in spiked chain viable/survivable at most/all levels?

[azhrei_fje]

From a purely mechanical view the spiked chain is fine. From a historical/realistic view, it's not fine. Just rename it to a historical chain weapon and change how it looks appropriately and you'll be fine.

Hmm. I saw a show on the Discovery Channel a few months ago that discussed medieval weapons and one of them was a chain with a dagger on one end and a metal loop on the other. The metal loop was so the chain could be attached to the fighter's wrist so that the weapon wouldn't be accidentally dropped. (Tough to explain how, though. The combatant's hand was not inserted into the loop. Instead, the dagger end of the chain was inserted through the metal loop, thus causing a "slipknot" of chain and the wrist was put into that slipknot.)

Anyway, it was a difficult weapon to master -- making the extra feat requirement quite appropriate. However, they did *not* depict it as a two-handed weapon. In fact, the two experts who did the demonstration used a short sword in their off-hand (probably like the off-hand weapon that was used with the katana -- the "W" sword -- what was it called?).

The chain was a puncturing weapon because the knife on the end could be thrown and yanked back after it hit. And it could be used to bludgeon by swinging the chain. The demonstration in the show was very impressive. Obviously, not as good as a bow to hit opponents who are at a distance, but very deadly up close. I can see a rogue using a spiked chain with sneak attack damage...

This leads to some obvious realism points for those DMs interested in limiting the spiked chain: require a second feat to use the spiked chain one-handed (realistic, given the training required, but it would need have a BAB +8 or similar requirement; note that the show described the weapon as being one-handed), and only allow bludgeoning damage when there is room to swing the chain (allies could get in the way as well as opponents).

From the player's perspective, you're a lot less likely to find a magical spiked chain in a treasure hoard than a magical sword, so the character will need to find some way to enchant their own weapon. IMC, I allow the use of Sean K. Reynolds' feat called supernatural weaponbond, although even that is pretty low-powered for a typical magic weapon. However, using that feat for adding special abilities and having the party mage (or someone else) add the enchantments would work as well...

 

[IronWolf]

I don't know, I recently played in a Legacy of the Green Regent game at Gen Con where our main fighter was a half-orced Spiked Chain wielder. Now maybe the guy just played it wrong, but I would have traded him in a heart beat for the dwarven barbarian we had in our party at Origins. Granted we were up against a barbed devil, but the spiked chain wielder just didn't seem to do a whole lot for us. Again, maybe he just wasn't playing him to his full ability...

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Well, also, lets keep in mind that dealing out uber damage is not the only reason for weilding a spiked chain. Many good RP reasons are out there. AND, the spiked chain weilder should slightly outpace the damage done by a longsword weilder.

But seriously, outside of the historical realism part this discussion so far has largely focused on the spiked chain being unable to keep up in the damage category. Personally - as a DM - I would much rather have a player who wants to pick feats and wrap them around being able to use a spiked chain effectively (not only damage but also trip and disarm) rather than having the standard "D'oh, gimmie the greatsword cause it does the most damage." Yes, the greatsword is made for Conan-type fighters. And with them it really works. I'm not criticizing people who use greatswords. But please! Gimmie a spiked-chain weilder or a glaive weilder or even a halberd weilder anyday. Especially if they want to dive into taking feats that really work with those types of weapons.

I think the feat required to use the chain makes it balanced. And, while it admittedly won't keep up in damage with other weapons, it opens up so many more avenues beyond just "kill ... kill ... kill." With a little thought you can disarm and pin and interrogate/imprison. You could trip and pin, interrogate/imprison.

I guess what I am saying is for a person who wants to be Conan - the spiked chain is not for you. But for someone who wants to explore other avenues of being effective, the spiked chain can really rock. But, you have to be smart about it!

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

The only effective counter is a really big enemy, or a kinda big quadruped. I.E. centaurs, dragons, titans, huge elementals, dire bears, remorhazes, etc. Improved Trip and the Spiked Chain make for a nasty combo, especially with Combat Reflexes and stuff.

...or nuke them from range. Or poke them full of holes from range. Or Dominate them into messing with their allies.

Of course, those may be obvious, but let's not leave them out.

Brad

 

[Aus_Snow]

I've seen a Rog/Ftr and a PsyWar/Ftr go well with the chain. They don't appear to have had any problems dealing out damage, or surviving in general. Straight fighters I've just not seen, with or without any particular weapons. I imagine Scout could go OK in the mix, though. Possibly a level or two of Barb..

Anyway, good luck.

 

[Scion]

I am wondering what sort of characters that we are looking at for the spiked chain actually. It sounds like they can do pretty much anything they like.

The spiked chain itself requires spending a feat itself.
It has a fairly low damage threshold for a two handed weapon.
In order to trip well you need to get improved trip which requires int 13+ and combat expertise.
The need of combat reflexes to really be able to take advantage of the extra reach.
In order to get a good use out of combat reflexes you need a decent dex.
In order to get a good trip check you need a good str (the higher the better).

So it sounds like we are talking about a character who needs a pile of feats and has a str around 16+ a dex of around 14+ and a int of around 13+ just to begin, along with needing a decent con (say 14+ because he will be in melee combat).

Point buy value 27 so far, and leaving your wis and cha at 8 is not exactly a good move, and this is the bare minimum. I'd have to say that the minimum guy I would want to play this with would be Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Wis 10, Int 14, Cha 8 for a point buy of 30. Looks like a decent character to me really, although for a fighter type I'd really rather have that wisdom be a little higher if I could manage it.

After that there are a number of different ways to get around reach (tumble, cover, various feats, surprise if the guy doesnt have combat reflexes, running the person out if they dont have a high enough dex, that sort of thing). Along with needing to make a lot of checks and do them well to do all of the impressive things people want to do with them.


It sounds like it could be fun and impressive, but given the sheer amount of prereqs and things that need to be put into the style shouldnt it be effective at that point?

It isnt like there arent tons of ways to get around it (anything ranged comes to mind, along with the aoo negation techniques), it is simply a valid build choice. There are other valid build choices out there, just because each can be used to great effect in its specialty doesnt make it bad or overpowered.


Remember, there are drawbacks to this sort of build

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

That's actually a very good plan... just not for a single-class or mostly single-classed fighter.

A fighter doesn't suffer as much from feat burn and some of his primary abilities are the weapon specialization and focus feats that encourage him to use a single weapon.

On the other hand, a barbarian, ranger, paladin, or multiclassed/non-traditional fighter (fighter/mage, fighter/cleric, fighter/rogue, combat focussed cleric, etc), doesn't get to take proper advantage of the weapon specialization tree (and may not get to use any of them) and pays a much higher opportunity cost for feats.

There's also the consideration of magical weapons. If your're going to just magic up one weapon, it's more cost-effective, but you suffer because some of your abilities are ineffective against some foes. (For instance, a +1 holy flaming shock longbow wastes the flaming and shock against demons, the flaming against devils, the holy against slaads, etc. Similarly, a +1 holy wounding guisarm wastes the wounding against undead and is basically just +1 against inevitables). On the other hand, if you are going to wield multiple weapons to begin with, you can more easily have a couple of good weapons which will generally use their bonusses well. For instance, a +1 ghost touch, undead bane sword and a +1 wounding guisarme are a pretty good combination because the sword is effective against the biggest group that the guisarm is not effective on.

So, I'd say it's a good options for fighter-types with limited feat selections but who want to have a reach-weapon option.

And as someone else pointed out why not take a reach weapon and have short range weapon as a back-up? No Feat burn with that combo...

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Spiked chain only has damage issues at low levels or for characters who would have damage issues no matter what weapon they wielded. By mid to high levels, a character shouldn't be getting more than maybe 30%-10% (the latter by 16-17th level) of his damage from the base weapon dice anyway.

IMO, the big issue with the spiked chain in terms of game power is the Exotic Weapon Master class. Just using martial weapons like the guisarm is pretty comparable in core rules only, but when you make flurry of blows available to spiked chain wielders--and only spiked chain wielders (ok, double weapon wielders get it too but who does that?)--unbalances the game too far in favor of the chain.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

It looks balanced to me.

You are getting some nice tactical edges, but you are giving up a significant amount of damage. A Fighter with Improved Crit on a Falchion or Greatsword is going to do 10%-25% damage per attack, assuming you have a very good Str. If you do not have a lot of Str, the low damage dice will hurt you even more.

Yes, the Chain is awesome when duking it out with some Thinks-He's-Badass humanoid. But most humanoids just do not live long against PCs for it to matter terribly much if they are prone or disarmed before their demise. And all those cute Chain tricks are not going to help you against a Balrog.

 

[Scion]

It isnt only about the base damage dice (which is about 2 average damage lower, which is the equivalent to another feat) but also the crit mulitplier. Against a good number of targets that means fewer chances to get the bigger hits in, and even then the bigger hits are only at x2 so they arent even that huge.

Between those and the feat requirement the overall damage will definately take a hit. Depending on the build it could be a 'major' hit, but even on the low end it is still noticeable.