Are Giants Overpowered?

[dcollins]

If you really want a nasty fight sometime, try a Troll Half-Fiend Barbarian 1 with magic items. CR 8...

I think a lot of people would agree that the CR adjustments for advancement, class levels on monsters, templates, etc., are somewhat deficient. For example, I assume we could put our heads together and agree on an approximate CR that is higher than 8 for this unique character.

I feel that it's really more critical for that to have been done correctly to the base giants listed in the core rules.

 

[Scion]

I feel that it's really more critical for that to have been done correctly to the base giants listed in the core rules.

What if the problem is that the npc is rated much too high and not that the giant is too low? At that point you would be attempting to 'fix' the wrong problem.

 

[Kalendraf]

One of the campaigns I DM for is based in Greyhawk and is using Liberation of Geoff as a basis for their adventures. Obviously, a lot of the opponents turn out to be giants. So far their encounters have only been against HIll, Frost and Fire giants, so my experience with how they've fared is limited to those 3 types facing a 6 character party across levels 7, 8 and now 9.

Based on the results of several battles, hill giants seem to be about a CR 7.5. Against a 7th level party, they were a tough match, sometimes acting more like a CR8 or 9. But in other battles, they've gone down very quickly with barely a scratch acting more like a CR7 monster. Now with the party at 9th level, they are pretty easy to take out without much danger. The hill giants' achilles heel has been no so much their will saves, but their reflex saves. Spells like entangle can be quite useful in slowing them down, providing the party with a better chance to fight at range where they usually have a sizeable advantage. And they tend to suffer full damage from most area effect spells as well.

The Frost Giant is listed as a CR9, but in battles so far, it's often seemed weaker than that. They do have a slightly improved AC and better attacks than the hill giant. But in game play, they don't seem much better than a hill giant. Once again, they have a pathetically low reflex save which usually means they take 150% damage from every fireball sent their way. I think they behave more like a CR8, at least as far as this group is concerned.

Fire giant is listed as a CR10, but these seem more like a CR11 or 12 for my party. They have even better AC, better saves, greatly improved attacks (3 swings with full attack and higher attack bonus), and of course that immunity to fire. While they do take 50% extra from cold, the most typical choices of cold-damage seem less reliable (ice storm, cone of cold). As a result, melee combat nearly always occurs with them. With 3 attacks that tend to connect fairly often for 3d6+15 each, a fire giant can quickly drop even a well-armored character in a very short time.

 

[dcollins]

Kalendraf, thanks for that series of observations. Makes me think that one could definitely reduce giants' Hit Dice and still have them functioning at the book-listed CR levels.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Makes me think that one could definitely reduce giants' Hit Dice and still have them functioning at the book-listed CR levels.

I'm sure you noticed the commentary on the frost giant, however. It's too weak for it's CR - you'd have to boost it's Hit Dice (or otherwise boost it's attack bonus, saving throws, etc... all modified by Hit Dice).

 

[dcollins]

I'm sure you noticed the commentary on the frost giant, however. It's too weak for it's CR - you'd have to boost it's Hit Dice (or otherwise boost it's attack bonus, saving throws, etc... all modified by Hit Dice).

Yes, he recommends CR 8 instead of 9 for Frost Giants.

But reading the whole thread more broadly, it seems the general opinion is that extra Hit Dice aren't helping giants anyway, because at a certain level a wizard comes along with a Will/Reflex/invisibility spell and knocks them down anyway. Hence the brute Hit Dice (radically out of sync for their size) are extraneous. Hence the Hit Dice could generally be reduced, into the standard range, and have the challenges still be appropriate for a level 7/8/9 something party.

 

[Endur]

I was hesitant to use examples from Liberation of Geoff. The problem is there that our characters (I play in the Living Greyhawk's Liberation of Geoff) are highly specialized to fight giants. We know that every time we sit down to play a game, we'll probably fight members of the giant/humanoid army that conquered Geoff.

So, for instance, Rangers take Giant as their primary favored enemy. Spellcasters focus on spells that have will and reflex saves and can affect creatures of the Giant type. Combat types focus on ways to deal with the powerful melee attacks of the Giants and their reach (high AC, archery, pole arms, or incredible strength, etc.).

I agree with the general observation that a Frost giant seems to be a bigger Hill Giant, but there is a qualitative difference between the Frost and the Fire giant, due to the 3 attacks a round. However, in reality, those extra iterative attacks almost never hit (due to high AC's, power attack, etc).

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

The fire giant also has the ability of doing decent damage with a ranged attack. That's another qualitative difference right there - quantitative, too.

My suggestion for the spell woes is to draw up a few giant clerics (or sorcerers, depending on the giant type) with 3 or 5 caster levels and making sure you have access to calm emotions and some way of seeing the invisible. Be sure to draw them up ahead of time and you can use them virtually any time you use a giant encounter.

I'm not following that. The sample NPC fighters in the DMG have fixed, pre-selected feats and magic items. What are you identifying as his increased versatility?

They're also missing out on gear A 12th-level fighter designed by the DM is also supposed to be CR 12. Obviously it's possible to tweak the rules to get something more powerful or not build an optimal fighter, of course.

Honestly, I'd be more afraid of the fighter than the giant. He probably has archery feats and a way to see the invisible (via a potion) and IME spellcasters are very reluctant to use Dispel Magic against such a fighter.

However, this assumes that he's not attacking on his own, and has a party to back him up (otherwise his low hit points and saves will do him in).

 

[dcollins]

I'm still not following this.

They're also missing out on gear A 12th-level fighter designed by the DM is also supposed to be CR 12. Obviously it's possible to tweak the rules to get something more powerful or not build an optimal fighter, of course.

So you're saying the default NPC fighter is not CR 12 due to poor selections, but a DM-created NPC fighter would be CR 12? Can you justify the assertion that they're missing out on gear? (I don't want to price it all up, perhaps you can do that for a Ftr8 or Ftr12.)

Honestly, I'd be more afraid of the fighter than the giant. He probably has archery feats and a way to see the invisible (via a potion) and IME spellcasters are very reluctant to use Dispel Magic against such a fighter.

The Ftr12 in my DMG already has archery feats: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (composite longbow). And yet the simulation run above shows that he's even weaker against a Stone Giant in a ranged fight than in melee. He also has no potion of see invisibility, as listed.

However, this assumes that he's not attacking on his own, and has a party to back him up (otherwise his low hit points and saves will do him in).

No, that is not how the CR rules work. The CR is fixed and said to be calculated for the one creature on their own.

 

[Scion]

with poor feat selection and very limited gear it would seem pretty clear that CR would vary wildly. Someone who picks feats properly (not with a dartboard) and who has full pc gear will be 'much' better off than the random scrub in the dmg. (along with picking a real class ) The guy I made beat the giant, and he was still useing less than his level in npc gear, and was only level 10!