Are Giants Overpowered?

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

3.0 giants seem about right for their CR IME - commoner stat array, poor Will saves & such. A classed giant with elite array or similar will likely be much tougher though - I had a 2nd level troll barbarian who did over 150 dmg recently in 2 rounds to a 13th level PC dwarf Paladin with a low AC.

IMO they weren't that balanced in 3.0. Not that they were necessarily overpowered or underpowered, but the high offense/low defense made them very annoying and swingy threats. Obviously anything can be a swingy threat, depending on tactics, but giants really only had two good tactics:

1) Stealth. (Usually this is a "yeah right!")
2) Ranged... need magical support to see the evil wizards. (Ready actions against clerics, and move around to reduce the cleric's cover!)

 

[dcollins]

I would say not. The NPC Ftr12 has much more versatility depending on his choice of feats and/or magic items.

I'm not following that. The sample NPC fighters in the DMG have fixed, pre-selected feats and magic items. What are you identifying as his increased versatility?

 

[dcollins]

Well, yes, that´s my (humble) opinion after these years playing and DMing D&D, that encounters are actually more or less difficult depending on that and a lot of other things, and it requires some experience and common sense to gauge the actual encounter´s difficulty. I´d still say, though, that the CR and EL system is a really useful tool as it is.

So if the CR system is a useful tool, then what do you think is the proper CR to associate with (say), a 12th-level NPC fighter? If you're saying "none" then you're disowning the tool in the first place.

 

[Scion]

I'm not following that. The sample NPC fighters in the DMG have fixed, pre-selected feats and magic items. What are you identifying as his increased versatility?

While true, it is obvious that they didnt pick an incredibly powerful set of feats. Especially when allowing feats from sources other than the phb. While it is an easy, quick reference you simply cant expect a substandard class made in an exceedingly substandard way to be able to shine against anything and everything. Some challenges are simply too much for certain classes to begin with, but then piling on more and more negative aspects and saying it proves something just isnt helpful.

The npc I made useing a 10th level fighter and actually picking feats to do what he wanted to do showed that he will beat the giant. This is without pc gear and without a party to back him up. He even had money left over to spend.

So, when picked more properly even such a lackluster guy can shine. Picking poorly will of course make a poor character. Just like if they had picked toughness for all of his feats and spent all of his money on magical pink bunny slippers even a 20th level fighter would have a hard time against the giant.

 

[mikebr99]

Just like if they had picked toughness for all of his feats and spent all of his money on magical pink bunny slippers even a 20th level fighter would have a hard time against the giant.

Well, that really depends on what those bunny slippers can do...


Mike

 

[Scion]

Well, that really depends on what those bunny slippers can do...

Lets just assume that they make the fighter no longer age (neither gaining bonuses nor penalties), always keep his feet nice and toasty no matter how cold it is, and keep his feet from stinking (for some people this would be worth the 700k alone). Oh, and we will let them double the bonuses from the toughness feats, just to be nice

Not that it is terribly relevant though..lol.. The comparison I made earlier with the npc fighter beating down the giant wins the day in my opinion Use a substandard guy who picked his feats out of a hat and then trying to use him as a comparison saying other things are overpowered just doesnt seem useful.

 

[Someone]

So if the CR system is a useful tool, then what do you think is the proper CR to associate with (say), a 12th-level NPC fighter? If you're saying "none" then you're disowning the tool in the first place.

12.

 

[Scion]

12.

Personally I would say much less than that. The massive lack of monetary equipment is a 'huge' hit in power. (as compared to pc's, since a 12th level pc and a 12th level npc have vastly different amounts of gear value)

 

[Endur]

I think Giants are worth their CR. Maybe a little on the strong side; some of them could use a +1 to their CR (Trolls, Ettins, Athach, etc.).

The real problem is, as mentioned earlier, NPC CR's are too high. Also you can't compare NPCs with items vs. Giants with no items, since Giants also have treasure and could and usually are equiped with magic items just like NPC humans are.

I'm not sure what the fix is for NPC CRs. Maybe a NPC Fighter is only worth 1/2 CR per level and a NPC Cleric is worth 1 CR per level, and maybe use an associated/nonassociated formula for multiclassing CRs.

If you really want a nasty fight sometime, try a Troll Half-Fiend Barbarian 1 with magic items. CR 8 (5 for troll + 2 for Half-Fiend +1 for Barbarian). Wings, SR 17, DR 5/magic, Resistance 10 to Fire and Acid, Half-Fiend Spell-like Abilities, Usual Troll Abilities,
Str 15 +12 (troll) +4 (half-fiend) +4 rage = 35
Dex 14 +4 (troll) +4 (half-fiend) =22
Con 13 +12 (troll) +2 (half-fiend) +4 rage =31
Int 10 -4 (troll) +4 (half-fiend) = 10
Wis 12 -2 (troll) =10
Chr 8 -4 (troll) +2 chr(half-fiend) = 6
HP: 6d8 + 60=84

And compare this Half-Fiend Troll Barbarian to your average 8th level NPC Fighter (also CR 8 according to the DMG).

 

[dcollins]

12.

Thanks for replying on that subject.