Are Giants Overpowered?

[Liquidsabre]

PCs aren't meant to go toe-to-toe with a giant in an all out slugfest, its playing to the giant's strength (not to mention a little insane ). Any well seasoned adventurer will be able to tell you you've got to adapt your tactics, as has already been pointed out a gaints poor will and ranged attacks are your friend.

SeveredHead has it right about the falling off of the overwhelming toughness of giants at around 10th level or so. At this level more tactical options tend to be available to the PCs that allow them to take the advantage in a combat: the fighter is more likely to have boots of flying and a good longbow, a wizard can cast and stay invisible, the rogue can't be found, and the cleric just cast's sanctuary and stands around summoning powerful summoned creatures. Usually (especially with more experienced groups) most everyone won't let themselves be caught in the open or vulnerable by the high damage-dealing of the giant. Either that or they are a buff/insane barbarian dude with nearly 200 hit points and a 2-handed legendary sword!

 

[Scion]

The NPC CR formula of 1 level = 1 CR is broken. I'm not sure what the right CR should be for an NPC of level X, but it should be something less.

According to this comparison it is apparently level -4 for this guy definately a varying factor there though.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Giants

Giant, meet archer. Archer, have a potion of Fly. Archer, meet target practice.

Giants are really, really easy to beat if you use decent tactics and choose your spells wisely. They can chuck a couple of rocks, but the attack bonus on those is usually half what they do with their melee weapons.

Also, giants have terrible reflex saves. A heightened Grease spell will nail them most of the time...even a regular Grease has a pretty good chance. A standard frost giant only has a reflex bonus of +3. Trap him inside a Blade Barrier. And then there's all those area-of-effect spells with range: long...and since you're hanging back to avoid going toe-to-toe...

As far as will saves are concerned, a phantasmal killer is likely to nail that frost giant. Heck, if you can hit him with Hold Monster, your fighters can get in and make trouble. Symbols have will saves and area effects. And, of course, Confusion just makes them beat the tar out of each other for a few rounds.

Giants are tanks, to be certain, but they've got some easily exploitable weaknesses. Heck, just slap Stoneskin, Protection from Evil, and Displacement on your barbarian and send him in to beat up the giant for a while.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

(sigh) The point is not that a PC could defeat a giant. The point is that if a 12th-level NPC Fighter counts as CR 12, then a Stone Giant that can beat such an NPC fighter should also count as CR 12.

As others have pointed out, a 12th-level NPC fighter is not a CR 12 appropriate challenge. Just like a giant, he is easily neutralized by Reflex and Will save spells (Otiluke's Resilient Sphere) and he can't cast spells. The giant has even fewer items than the fighter does. He might have a Potion of See Invisibility but that doesn't make his ranged attacks nearly as useful as his melee attacks.

Worse, a lot of his power is tied up with equipment, which is decidedly less than what a 12th-level player gets. If you want to play a setting where NPCs and PCs have equal power, I suggest taking a look at D20 Modern or other low-item settings.

For good giant-killing tactics, just read any fantasy novel where giants are used as opponents. The closest thing I've seen to a "beat-or-be-beat" encounter against giants involved a gladiator using Combat Expertise to not get hit (while slicing up their legs to fell them).

 

[Staffan]

The NPC CR formula of 1 level = 1 CR is broken. I'm not sure what the right CR should be for an NPC of level X, but it should be something less.

I usually call it level-1 or level-2 and be done with it.

 

[Antoine]

Giants don't fly, don't see invible creatures, don't have many capacities beside crude strength. Their ranged attack is ineffective when compared to their melee potential.

They're your basic 2-legged dinosaurs easily turned into a platter of experience points.

From a player's point of view : we regurlarly exeperience more trouble with ogres at low levels than giants at mid level. Though relatively weak, ogres are destructive when compared to 3rd level characters.
Mid-level adventurers, encountering giants are likely to survive the odd blow that lands (except the splitting giant's huge greataxe critical).
Mostly, when we encounter giants, it's easy to outsmart them rather that engage in frontal combat.

From the DM's side of the screen : never TPKed with giants. Biggest issue is player wrongly dealing with opportunity attacks and reach. Huge giants are far more difficult to deal with than large ones in melee. Outdoors, it's rather difficult to obtain tactical advantaged with so visible and predictable beasts. Indoors, it's depend to much of the floor plan to be developped here.

 

[Darklone]

Giants are sitting ducks for my newbie players. Where's your problem?

 

[Derulbaskul]

The poor Will save (and Reflex to a lesser extent) for giants makes their CR about right, however, the classed NPC level = CR formula is the one that's just not right and I think the designers understand this... sometimes.

Look at the example of psionic version of the mind flayer. It is CR 8 and has both the mind flayer's normal abilities plus the abilities of a 9th level psion. A human psion of the same level is, according to the RAW, CR 9. So, if the mind flayer with its veritable suite of abilities has a CR = CL-1 then perhaps the CR for a classed PHB race should be CL-2 after, say, 5th level.

Thoughts?

 

[wolfen]

Doesn't CR level relate to being evenly matched with a PARTY of PC's of that level? I think CR was created with the assumption there was a Fighter, Cleric, Arcane Caster, etc.

 

[Nifft]

Look at the example of psionic version of the mind flayer. It is CR 8 and has both the mind flayer's normal abilities plus the abilities of a 9th level psion. A human psion of the same level is, according to the RAW, CR 9. So, if the mind flayer with its veritable suite of abilities has a CR = CL-1 then perhaps the CR for a classed PHB race should be CL-2 after, say, 5th level.

I think this is supposed to be what equipment represents. So, a Mind Flayer has whatever treasure you roll for it, which might be useless for it in combat, while an NPC Psion has stuff that's suited to it (including in combat).

HOWEVER, in your favor is the 3.5e changes to the Nymph -- she used to cast Druid spells higher than her CR, and now she does not. Perhaps the Psi Mind Flayer will be likewise errata'd.

-- N