Are Harpoons Overpowered? [My players stay out]

[DM_Matt]

I was looking over S&F the other day and found stats for the Harpoon, an Exotic Weapon what does 1d10 (20/x2) dmg and has the following special abilities:

Harpoon: ...Though intended to be used in hunting whales and other large sea creatures, the harpoon can be used on dry land. Even if an Exotic Weapon Proficiency is taken for the Harpoon, creatures of less than Medium size suffer a -2 penalty to their attack rolls due to the weapon's weight. If you inflict damage on your opponent, the harpoon may lodge in the
victim if the victim fails a Reflex saving throw against a DC equal to 10 plus the damage you inflicted. The harpooned creature moves at only half speed and cannot charge or run. If you control the trailing rope by succeeding at an opposed Strength check while holding it, the harpooned creature can only move within the limits that the rope allows (the trailing rope is 30 feet long). If the harpooned creature attempts to cast a spell, it must succeed at a Concentration check (DC 15) or fail, losing the spell. The harpooned creature can pull the harpoon from its wound if it has two free hands and it takes a full- round action to do so, but in so doing it inflicts damage on itself equal to the initial damage the harpoon caused."

This seems pretty broken to me? Comments?

Spoilers (my PCs stay out):

Spoiler

I was planning on a Paladin of Tyranny (UA LE Pally Varient) / Cleric / Stormlord to use this in a battle with a PC Paladin/Cavelier. This would obviously be very, very bad for the PC, but then again, she's a freakin' Anti-Paladin, she's supposed to cheat! Would that to too harsh?

 

[green slime]

Yes, it is too good. The garrot (in S&F, IIRC) is another item that is too good, IMO.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

Yeah... it is a very nasty weapon but then again it should be historically speaking. Regarding your spoilers I say go for it but be prepared for your players to get the idea that using a harpoon might not be a bad idea for their PCs. You might find yourself with a party of whalers.

 

[uzagi_akimbo]

Hmmm, I don't know about the "brokenness". It just lacks understanding by the "S&F" author of just how a harpoon works, and what supplementary rules are/would be .needed


Some details seem wrong at first glance - range increment of 30' and weight of 10 lbs seems utterly wrong to me, unless they are refering to some light bone and driftwood Inuit seal hunting harpoons. Actual whaling harpoons used to be rather large ( around 35 - 45 inches in length ), very massive (basically the entire length of the weapon was a forged iron shaft with an eyebolt/loop forged onto the back end , fitted with wooden grips for better handling ) and usually hurled over very short distances only. The damage (1D10 ) seems ok for that make of harpoon.

Whaling harpoons can be easily gleaned by watching "Moby Dick" or in several maritime museums - check this as one possible reference.
http://www.whalingmuseum.org/kendall/whalecraft/whalecraft_index.html

In game terms - a wooden spear (with just a metal head ) weighs 6lbs. and has a range-increment of 20'. An all-metal (with wooden handles ) harpoon shouldn't be capable of being hurled farther than that. If it is lighter, damage and range should be adjusted to spear or javelin levels.
So I would say weight 15-20 lbs weight and range increment 10' sounds far more accurate for metal whaling harpoons than the S&F description. And - how many harpoons (plus line - which needs to be readied and held fast ) is one character going to actually carry, even at 10lbs, the weight of a greatsword ?

Anyway - it would prove very hard to hurl a harpoon more than 30' if its line was only the stated 30' long - and even then it should be securely fastened down or held by a very strong person ("tug-of-war" Str tests spring to mind ).
Of course, an intelligent foe could easily cut/sunder the line (or possibly the weapon itself) , freeing himself. If you throw it further, you may loose the line...
And a heavier/sturdier line or even a chain should definitely add to weight and cause a penalty to the ranged attack - both from drag and effect on the throw itself. Whaling lines actually used to be several hundred feet long - but then they were transported in a boat, not on a characters back.

The Reflex save DC seems rather steep - on the other hand, it does not really hamper a melee character all that much (especially if he cuts/sunders the line ) - except of course for charges. I frankly have no idea how they explain the reduction in speed, though (if it is due to harpoon sticking in the target - why don't spears, arrows, javelins and such cause the same effect ? if it due to the harpooner holding onto the line - why is the target hampered when charging towards, say, the harpooner ?) - that should be very much dependent on the size of the harpooned target (even with an unbreakable line) - the limits for grappling might be applicable here, from a common sense point of view.

I am uncertain about the concentration check (DC 15) for spellcasting by the victim - if actual damage was done each round, I could see the point, but that is not the case . Comparable "sticking" weapons such as the quills of the Howler or from "Quillblast" give a penalty to Dex and/or all actions - which strangely is not the case here. On the other hand, most casters are going to cast "defensively" to begin with, and the DC for that is equal or higher anyway.

Ruleswise :
The damage from removing the weapon was revised in the"Arms and Equipment Guide" (page 8) - a DC 15 heal check prevents it.

IMHO the harpoon isn't so much broken, as it is "underruled", e.g. it is lacking rules and/or the author had no idea just how a harpoon works and is handled.
( but after a long hard look at most of the weaponry in d20, _that_ comes as no surprise.). Use with large dose of common sense and GM "chuzpa"....

 

[Malin Genie]

One thing to remember is that the Harpoon requires a full-round action to throw. So you cannot move and throw, nor can you (unless you have the Quick-Draw Feat) draw and throw in the same turn. That is actually a big disadvantage in practise, and IMHO together with the requirement for an extra feat (Exotic Weapon Proficiency) helps balance the weapon.

 

[RigaMortus]

Yeah, a Harpoon seems like one of those weapons that is really nice to use at the right moment. I don't see it being used too much as a "main weapon".

 

[DM_Matt]

Yeah, a Harpoon seems like one of those weapons that is really nice to use at the right moment. I don't see it being used too much as a "main weapon".

Well, the fear is that I'm being too harsh by hitting the Cavelier's horse with it. The inability to charge shuts down most of his special abilities.

 

[BryonD]

Remember that the damage dealt by a harpoon to a moderate to high level character (or paladin's warhorse) is vastly less than would be done to a real person by a real harpoon.

I don't mean to state the obvious or to smart off. It is just that people seem to readily recall and expect that heroes can take a lot of hits and then turn around and expect side effects of weapons should still be fully effective.

To what ever extent it fits your game, the capture effectiveness of a harpoon should be turned down in a manner consistent with the reduction in its kill effectiveness.

 

[DanMcS]

Well, the fear is that I'm being too harsh by hitting the Cavelier's horse with it. The inability to charge shuts down most of his special abilities.

Bah. Nobody gets to use all their special abilities all the time. Don't worry about it. It's not "too harsh" to send un-sneak-attackable critters against a group which includes a rogue. It's just a challenge.

 

[Feldspar]

I don't like it simply for the fact that it works in a way that is counter to the how we treat weapon attacks and hitpoints. Basically, it viloates the treatment of hitpoints as an abstraction of health+skill and the idea that not every hit for damage results in an actual wound. Say I have a hundred hit points and get hit by one of these. If I take even one measly point of damage, I now have a giant spear EMBEDED IN MY BODY. That's a pretty grevious injury on a man sized creature, certainly more than 1/100 of my "life force" or whatever you want to call hit points. That's a "I need a doctor or I will die from blood loss or infection" kind of a wound.

I've seen plenty of people argue/ask for barbed arrows which had the same "take equal damage on removal" rule. I've always argued against for the reason above. Some of those "hits" are actually just near misses or grazes.