Are people still mad about . . .

[Relique du Madde]

You can do that in HERO or M&M...

It might be a Gritty Little Pony in GURPS, though.

Yeah, but I want official Hasbro stats.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

The normative line gets drawn somewhere. If we made allowances for every individual's own take on the sorts of behaviors that are acceptable online, we'd have...well, we'd have 4chan.

How about the line is drawn at the point where you stop telling other people how they're supposed to feel?

This isn't exactly a new argument. "4e insulted me." "No it didn't you're overreacting" "No I didn't, I was honestly insulted!" "We should have a line drawn for people who overact about 4e insulting them!"

No. That's dumb. You feel one way, someone feels differently. That doesn't make you supreme overlord and psychic master, who can delve into the hearts and minds of others over the internet to know how they really feel.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

These guys are game designers. They speak about the design of their game. What it focuses on. What they were looking out for. What's important for the development of the game mechanics.

It isn't a value statement that people using it for something else are doing it wrong.

I think the typical reason for feeling insulted is not sharing the same context as the game designers.

This is a very good point, and may well be THE point. And it's exactly why designers shouldn't be allowed to do marketing

 

[Pierson_Lowgal]

Full disclosure: I'm not a huge fan of D&D 4e, but I keep hearing comments like yours.

Was their marketing really like that? My (admittedly dim) memory is only of comments about what they were trying to fix with 4e...

The marketing of 4E wasn't as negative towards past products as is Dominoe's product relaunch, hilariously spoofed by both The Daily Show & Colbert. The launch of a replacement product in and of itself is a repudiation of the past product.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

No losses are acceptable losses. Not when you are trying to make sales and a profit~ anyone that tells you otherwise doesn't know what he's talking about.

I respectfully disagree. If you try to make a game that appeals to everyone then you will most likely lose more than if you focus on what your market research has told you is your largest segment. Anyone who tells you that you must cater 100% to your current customer base is doomed for failure.

Including actions that lose you a large chunk of your current income base over the long term is a risky strategy with little chance of return.

You still continue to assert a "large" portion of their prior income base. What data do you have to supoprt this? Anecdotal evidence of people raging against 4E on the internet? Anecdotal evidence of people you know not playing 4E? WotC and Hasbro are the only ones who know whether their risk paid off as they expected. And since the game keeps releasing more and more my guess is that the game is the success they have been telling us it is.

The person in charge of their brand strategy was a fool.

See, right here is why I don't think you think of this person as a real person. Would you call another poster a fool? That's what you just did. And you should get a warning for it.

I'm just annoyed by the crappy GSL and pulling PDFs. Both were stupid things that damaged WotC customers' goodwill and D&D's brand image. The less exposure D&D has, the less it grows. 3ps' expanded the pie beyond whatever tiny proportions WotC might have lost.

I agree with you. Although less vehemently in the case of the GSL. 3PP are doing well releasing 4E product under the GSL. Why some have decided to accept the GSL while others dismiss it is a reason only those publishers know for sure.

And WotC's excuses for pulling PDFs were a smack in the face. They were abject lies. I have a low tolerance for b******* and deliberate stupidity. WotCs' actions regarding PDFs and the GSL smack of both.

You should really stop making personal attacks. Most of the WotC folks post here or used to post here and calling others liars and deliberatly stupid doesn't seem wise to me.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

The marketing of 4E wasn't as negative towards past products as is Dominoe's product relaunch, hilariously spoofed by both The Daily Show & Colbert. The launch of a replacement product in and of itself is a repudiation of the past product.

For me, this. The message I heard was "players told us 'Aspect X' wasn't fun, so this is how we are handling it in 4E." I feel certain that they never intended that message to turn into "your game is stupid and unfun."

 

[gamerprinter]

Now I don't know the entire user base but in an area with only two game stores, I don't know anyone who plays 4e - no group in either of those two stores. Granted the area is rural so we're not talking huge numbers here, but I know about 40 people who play RPGs, most still play 3e, some Pathfinder, but I know of no one here, that play 4e. One store owner says, he's stuck with all these 4e books and they are not selling.

Again, one tiny slice of the market. But it says something here.

GP

 

[Raven Crowking]

I respectfully disagree. If you try to make a game that appeals to everyone then you will most likely lose more than if you focus on what your market research has told you is your largest segment. Anyone who tells you that you must cater 100% to your current customer base is doomed for failure.

I agree.

You still continue to assert a "large" portion of their prior income base. What data do you have to supoprt this?

Based on the importance WotC placed on the game table for thier initiative, and based upon the general idea that making it work is mostly a matter of throwing money into its development, one might argue that WotC no longer thinks the money worth it.

Go on, WotC....Get the game table running! Prove me wrong!


RC

 

[Chrono22]

I respectfully disagree. If you try to make a game that appeals to everyone then you will most likely lose more than if you focus on what your market research has told you is your largest segment. Anyone who tells you that you must cater 100% to your current customer base is doomed for failure.

Microsoft office.

You still continue to assert a "large" portion of their prior income base. What data do you have to supoprt this? Anecdotal evidence of people raging against 4E on the internet? Anecdotal evidence of people you know not playing 4E? WotC and Hasbro are the only ones who know whether their risk paid off as they expected. And since the game keeps releasing more and more my guess is that the game is the success they have been telling us it is.

WotC keeps laying off its employees. Doesn't sound like a stunning success to me.

See, right here is why I don't think you think of this person as a real person. Would you call another poster a fool? That's what you just did. And you should get a warning for it.

I would call another person a fool, yes, if he's acting like a fool. Your warning has been duly noted and duly thrown in the trash.

Admin here. See this, folks? Don't do this - sarcastic rudeness gets you booted from the thread and makes your moderators cranky. It's fine to disagree with someone, but never be a jerk about it. ~ PCat

I agree with you. Although less vehemently in the case of the GSL. 3PP are doing well releasing 4E product under the GSL. Why some have decided to accept the GSL while others dismiss it is a reason only those publishers know for sure.

Poison pill clause and late release are the reasons, obviously. It ain't because D&D stopped being a source of income.

You should really stop making personal attacks. Most of the WotC folks post here or used to post here and calling others liars and deliberatly stupid doesn't seem wise to me.

When I address "WotC" I am addressing the corporate entity. When I start naming names, is when it becomes a personal attack. Believe me, you'll know the difference.

 

[renau1g]

Now I don't know the entire user base but in an area with only two game stores, I don't know anyone who plays 4e - no group in either of those two stores. Granted the area is rural so we're not talking huge numbers here, but I know about 40 people who play RPGs, most still play 3e, some Pathfinder, but I know of no one here, that play 4e. One store owner says, he's stuck with all these 4e books and they are not selling.

Again, one tiny slice of the market. But it says something here.

GP

FWIW the game store in my city has 3 nights a week that run RPGA games and they sometimes have to turn players away. Small portions of the whole are not worthwhile to determine the success or failure of a system. Until WOTC releases their sales figures for 3e and 4e and as well their initial estimates to compare against actual results we probably won't have more than conjecture on the interwebs about how well or not well it's doing.