Are people still mad about . . .

[Dannager]

Now that I think about it that's not what I've seen at Paizo. I've seen Erik or James step in and tell EVERYONE in the thread to CHILL OUT. I've NEVER seen them step in and jump on the 4E fans only.

I'm not talking about the staff. Paizo's staff has always, as far as I can remember, been very even-handed in their moderation and is often supportive of WotC even when their fans choose not to be - their moderate voice is one of the reasons I consider myself such a strong Paizo supporter. The dogpile I was referring to involves the regular forum users, not the staff.

 

[Hussar]

Combining a false dilemma with a strawman. Impressive.

So, exactly what did you mean by:

Originally Posted by Mark Chance
WotC wanted to make more money. That's what businesses do. They figured the best way to do that was to completely scrap 3.5 and put out a new game system that would quickly repeat the same "book-a-month" marketing strategy that drove 3.5.

 

[Lanefan]

Man, leave this place alone for a day and suddenly you're way behind...

Hussar et al, I'll get into youth/adult marketing in the other thread.

Compatibility: 0e, BECMI, 1e, and core 2e (to a lesser extent) are all reasonably compatible with each other at least on the surface; and it doesn't take much tweaking to convert something from one to another.

3e is not really backwards-compatible with any prior edition, though in some ways it sort-of tries; to their credit, WotC did put out a free 2e ==> 3e conversion guide although some of the suggested conversions didn't really give the desired results (multi-class, front and center!).

3e ==> 4e didn't even get graced with a conversion guide, and 4e - as far as I can tell - isn't backward-compatible with any previous D+D version.

As far as the changes to FR go, I really liked the setting until the 3e version, which lost me...too much development, too many roads and towns where there weren't before, and too much canon one had to filter out. I haven't bothered with the 4e version as I'm not using FR as the basis for my setting these days.

Lanefan

 

[pawsplay]

2E is very compatible with AD&D. I'd say 2E/3E is more compatible than 3E/4E, but I think you're right that the disparity between 2E/3E is greater than most people allow in these discussions.

I've never had to spend more than a few seconds figuring out what race/class a 2e character would be in 3e. Now, 3e to 4e...

 

[SteveC]

Not really, but that wasn't the bulk of my point.

Some people make the claim that (1) WotC listened to player feedback about 3.5 so that (2) WotC could fix 3.5's problem areas, and that (3) 4E is the result. I don't buy that. Never did. If WotC wanted to fix 3.5 problems areas, something akin to Pathfinder or Trailblazer would've been the way to go.

I can't disagree with this enough. A 4E system akin to Pathfinder, or even Trailblazer would have not been significantly different from 3X to warrant being called a new edition. It certainly wouldn't have earned any money from me. And as someone who participated in several surveys conducted by WotC--and having my concerns largely addressed, I'll say that they certainly did address this gamers concerns, as well as the concerns of a lot of other gamers. Your mileage may vary, and obviously does. That does not mean that they didn't listen and attempt to make a game with as broad an appeal as possible.

WotC wanted to make more money. That's what businesses do. They figured the best way to do that was to completely scrap 3.5 and put out a new game system that would quickly repeat the same "book-a-month" marketing strategy that drove 3.5.

Also, THAC0 didn't go anywhere. It just got shifted to a new location. BAB is the new THAC0. I played 1E using a character-class-and-level based "to hit" bonus instead of THAC0 before 2E ever saw the light of day.

And here we are back to this "it's all about the money argument." What's the point of this comment, exactly?

To answer the original poster's question: I think the answer is "yes, people are still angry." I have no idea why, as Pathfinder, Trailblazer, Fantasy Craft and countless other OGL games are still out there. Is there that much to not playing the "official" game to generate this venom? Why not play the game you love and be happy with that? Oh, and why not simply let those who are pleased with 4E enjoy their game as well?

 

[Vartan]

WotC betrayed and gunned down my father, poured sugar in my gas tank, stole my girlfriend, made me look bad at work and called my mom a name that I can't type in this post because of the profanity filter.

No, seriously. None of that actually happened. WotC publishes games.

When I worked as a supervisor at a large law firm I was often called upon to serve as a buffer between the firm's partners, the associate attorneys to whom I answered, and the various non-attorneys who answered to me. The job exposed me to an unbelievable amount of office politics. One of my managing attorneys was extremely effective and seemed to stay out of the petty intra-office spats which bogged down so many of our colleagues. He told me something that has served me well in all walks of life:

"I'm not looking to be offended."

It seems to me that this entire thread is born of a desire to be offended. "Designer X said something mean about fairies. That's bad marketing. Designer X was promoting Product Y, and I don't like Product Y, so the corporation that employs Designer X and produces Product Y obviously knows nothing about running a successful business. Designer X insulted me and Product Y disappointed me so not only will I take my money elsewhere, I'll complain ad nauseam about it on the internet."

Really?

"Are people still mad about..."

I mean, really?

We could just rename this thread "All of the trolling with none of the bans!"

 

[billd91]

Oh, and why not simply let those who are pleased with 4E enjoy their game as well?

Who's stopping you? For that matter, who's stopping you from leaving threads like this alone? This is one reason threads degenerate into edition wars. No matter what someone says, even if it's clear that it's a subjective opinion like being cheesed off by WotC decisions or marketing, some one else feels the need to argue it.

If you want to be left alone to enjoy your game, why not leave other people alone to express their opinions? If you want people to respect your right to enjoy your game, perhaps you had better respect other people's right to not enjoy the same game.

 

[Starfox]

Some expressions can be translated to others, keep their meaning, and yet deliver completely different values:

All for the money = Want the broadest possible appeal

What is wrong with a commercial company wanting to make a popular, commercially viable product? Trying to come up with support products (floor plans, minis, power cards, whatever) that customers want and use? And how would this translate into making them want to create a product that alienates a large portion of their customer base?

Do not ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

It seems to me that this entire thread is born of a desire to be offended. "Designer X said something mean about fairies. That's bad marketing. Designer X was promoting Product Y, and I don't like Product Y, so the corporation that employs Designer X and produces Product Y obviously knows nothing about running a successful business. Designer X insulted me and Product Y disappointed me so not only will I take my money elsewhere, I'll complain ad nauseam about it on the internet."

I don't think the thread was born of a desire to be offended. It looked (to me, at least) to be a genuine query as to whether folk around here were still miffed about this & that.

The answer seems to be...some of us are, though few are as ticked off now as we were then. Time does grant new perspectives.

That the thread functioned to open those old wounds a bit...well, I'm not going to ascribe any motives to the OP on that.

 

[DaveyJones]

To be fair, I've seen that same attitude of entitlement for every single edition of the game except for one. 4e, 3.5, 3e, 1e, and (ahem) OD&D - there's always someone who thinks their game is the One True Way (tm).

(Hi, Diaglo! )

Davey "I, too, have seen it" Jones