D&D 4E Are powers samey?

[atanakar]

I find them samey because of the number of powers directed solely at combat. In OD&D very few spells are combat-related. Sleep at first level, then Fireball and Lightning bolt at 3rd; most deal with out of combat situations. Furthermore, Clerical and MU spells are utilitarian in very different aspects of the game. MU spells deal more with trickery, while clerical spells heal (cure disease) and help make new potential allies (speak with animals). Clerics have very few combat-focused spells at all.

Inside of combat, 4e characters are very different from one another. I agree, but I find all characters focus mainly on one aspect the game: fighting.

That being said, I'm an OD&D guy. I play with 3 main classes. I don't have huge problem with similarity.

Nitpicking:

I would say that Charm Person is an attack spell. It is very powerful in OD&D :
«Charm Person: This spell applies to all two-legged, generally mammalian figures near to or less than man-size, excluding all monsters in the “Undead” class but including Sprites, Pixies, Nixies, Kobolds, Goblins, Orcs, Hobgoblins and Gnolls. If the spell is successful it will cause the charmed entity to come completely under the influence of the Magic-User until such time as the “charm” is dispelled (Dispel Magic). Range: 12”.»

Also, you can make an Anti-Cleric if you choose Chaos as an alignement. Many cleric spells were reversible and became attack spells.

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

Nitpicking:

I would say that Charm Person is an attack spell. It is very powerful in OD&D :
«Charm Person: This spell applies to all two-legged, generally mammalian figures near to or less than man-size, excluding all monsters in the “Undead” class but including Sprites, Pixies, Nixies, Kobolds, Goblins, Orcs, Hobgoblins and Gnolls. If the spell is successful it will cause the charmed entity to come completely under the influence of the Magic-User until such time as the “charm” is dispelled (Dispel Magic). Range: 12”.»

Also, you can make an Anti-Cleric if you choose Chaos as an alignment. Many cleric spells were reversible and became attack spells.

All true. Once again, though, I've never seen any player choose to play an anti-cleric.

 

[atanakar]

All true. Once again, though, I've never seen any player choose to play an anti-cleric.

I knew one. ;-)

 

[BryonD]

Class Sameyness and "Power System" Sameness are different. The first is between the class the second is the power system itself over the whole game.

You may be hitting the root of things.
It kinda feels like the specification of "powers" is a debate gimmick.
In actual play you don't parse out things like "my class" vs "my class' powers". You just play.

People complain a lot about the endless +3 to a skill feats in 3X. I think that would be the ultimate definition of "samey". Yet I've never heard anyone claim that feats are samey. (As opposed to "New splatbook XYZ is full of feats with nothing new in the bunch". So you don't like the product.) But when actually playing there are plenty of diverse feats to choose from and 3X as a system, doesn't have nearly the equivalent "saminess" reputation as 4E. (YMMV, but as a collective perception, this is true).

Joe plays 4E. To Joe "everything" feels samey. Joe burns out on 4E quickly. Somebody tells Joe that "powers" are not samey. Joe, having not played 4E in month shrugs, it all felt samey to me.
Add to that the fact that there are reasonable arguments that 4E powers are at least a bit more samey (the math, the presentation, etc) and the point becomes so fine that it is meaningless to the real perception of "fun at the table".

 

[BryonD]

You could also use the 4E engine to clone 3.5 or Basic. Sure you would strip stuff out and rewrite monsters but you could do it.

I don't think this would be all that easy.
I was certainly encourage that this is what I should do back before 5E was announced.

Things like +1/2 level and healing surges are deeply baked into the foundations of 4E. You could take them out. But by the time you are done you will have a wonky thing which was built assuming things that are no longer there. It might be "ok", but there are other great games that it needs to be better than.

 

[Garthanos]

Sure you don't gain the +1 bonus to hit but then 5e doesn't really bother with those small bonuses anyway because it doesn't really need them.

It isnt precise however you can 30 foot move and attack in 4e too that isnt even well anything ie that is a fail and not a charge)
Ie 30 feet more of movement potentially every round is not a small bonus people. What is in 4e without a paywall is the 60 foot move and attack mobility everyone has this and the +1 doesnt hurt either which you may or may not need in 4e either or you may need the extra movement either "NEEDING" is not the same as having the option. There are 4e powers both at-wlls and encounter that swap out the attacks at the end of the charge with better buffed often at-will attacks too and sure feats (that arent double sized and expensive) that key off of it as well. So no the mobility with attack is what is lost behind a paywall.

The flavor of it is also lost behind the paywall. The rush and hit I am not sure if that conveys well. But there were enough things that keyed off it as well shrug.

 

[Garthanos]

Thank you for your views. I will just add that for many of us who like 4E, this is a feature not a bug, because it makes combat interesting and every character class is able to contribute more or less equally to combat.

Yeah yay for the game design no longer pretending the thief was actually effective.

 

[Oofta]

Yeah yay for the game design no longer pretending the thief was actually effective.

I'll have to tell my group that the rogue isn't effective. They'll be quite dissapointed that they're only imagining all the bodies that pile up around her.

Oh, and the rogue has talents outside of combat that come into play on a regular basis that more than balance out any perceived weakness.

 

[Garthanos]

I'll have to tell my group that the rogue isn't effective. They'll be quite dissapointed that they're only imagining all the bodies that pile up around her.

Did you read my sentence ... nope not a rogue the thief we were talking old D&D, itty bitty effect in combat always better to just not do it... the only body in a pile would be the thief.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Powers are not samey. But after a few levels, classic AEDU became samey in practise.
We stopped thinking about aour story and only though about when it is the best time to unleash encounter and/or daily powers.

I think 4E essentials did a much better job presenting the classes and made them feel different. Also taking away daily and partially encounter powers allowed to focus more on the actual story.

On problem still stayed: combat was too strategic to embed it in a 2-3 hour session of DnD. It made a fun minigame, but that was not what we wanted to do in those few hours.